NJ guys - which airplane would pick as a new hire?

[imacdog]

Can you clarify how the contract works for transition/upgrade? 39 mth seatlock for fo's...so I thought I heard there is a way to go laterally fo to fo before the 39 months is up...for example you have 10 months left in current lock, go to another fo spot so then you have 49 months on that plane....so the removed upgrade restriction WITHIN FLEET...so that means that you can upgrade whenever it get awarded...as long as you go to a different fleet?

Also in terms of upgrade....when I flew 121 I was way to junior to hold cap...but everyone said bid it anyway, maybe you'll get lucky...same here?

Your 39 month equipment lock won't prevent you from upgrading into any fleet at the first opportunity, even if your original 39 months is up and you move laterally to another fleet as an FO. Say you do move laterally, you have a 39-month equipment lock. If after a year you upgrade in the same fleet, the 39-month lock does not renew itself. You will only have to be captain in that fleet for 27 months before bidding another type. However, if after a year in your new fleet as an FO you are awarded Captain in a different type, you take the rest of that equipment lock with you and add it to the 39-month lock in your new fleet. In this example, when you switch fleets for upgrade, you will have a 66-month lock in that equipment.

 

[johnsonrod]

I would place them in the following order:

1) DA-2000 The Falcon is a great airplane. I've always said that you know a company has done it right when a jet doesn't need a stick shaker or a stick pusher. The job of the FO on the Falcon is to copy down the ATIS, receive a clearance, and load the FMS box. Anything more than that is voluntary.

2) G-200 The G-200 is a great airplane with a lot of room to move around. It also does some nice international trips as well as Hawaii trips. Now some are going to say that it's only the A-Team that does these trips but that's not the case at all and it's actually going to get even better in the near future. It's the CP's plan to have everybody checked out by going through an online class and/or DVD training. The G-200 has a longer range than the Falcon (classic model) so it's been doing a lot more international stuff lately.

3) Hawker 800XP It's a great airplane that does a little of everything. Since you're VERY limited when it comes to amount of baggage that you can take, you'll never have to worry about loading two SUV's full of crap into a cramped baggage compartment. It's a great type rating to have as well since there's a Hawker at just about every airport in the country.

4) CE-750 The X has been known for working the hardest for a few years now but that's changed over the last year. If you look at the reports, the CE-680 has taken over that roll. You'll do a lot of coast-to-coasts in the X but you normally do one and a ferry leg and you're done for the day. It's also a great type rating to have if you're ever interested in doing side-work.

5) CE-560XL Just like the X, it's been known to be a workhorse but like I said before, the 680 is taking the lead. It's an easy airplane to fly and you may do a handful of coast-to-coasts a year. It rates number 5 on my list because of its size. You're getting into the smaller cabin size now and things start to get a bit cramped.

6) CE-680 This one rates last on my list for more than one reason. First, it's the busiest airplane out of all the fleets we have. You have to deal with the typical Cessna seats for long days. The airplane out performs just about any other airplane we have which means you'll be the one going into all of the small non towered airports. It's also known for being able to takeoff out of a small 4000 foot strip in Miami and going nonstop to LAX. That's a ********************ty day in a cramped cockpit!!!

Thanks for the great review!

Certainly the G200 is appealing for its cockpit width on the longer flights. But I have heard people say it is not a great performer and that it flies like a "truck." Perhaps they was comparing it to the Sovereign and X which obviously perform better - performance is always relative... Regardless, it seems like a very comfortable airplane for both crew and pax - so, I'd probably take that if I was ever lucky enough to be offered a choice.

Sounds like the Sovereign is a double whammy - you fly a lot (including many transcons in the tight cockpit) and you might have to load a lot of bags due to the copious baggage space...

If the G200 wasn't offered, I would probably go for the Hawker 800XP-C. Super nice avionics (Pro Line 21), nice geographic variety and limited baggage space reduces the likelihood that you will be straining your back with the bags.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Can you clarify how the contract works for transition/upgrade? 39 mth seatlock for fo's...so I thought I heard there is a way to go laterally fo to fo before the 39 months is up...for example you have 10 months left in current lock, go to another fo spot so then you have 49 months on that plane....so the removed upgrade restriction WITHIN FLEET...so that means that you can upgrade whenever it get awarded...as long as you go to a different fleet?

Also in terms of upgrade....when I flew 121 I was way to junior to hold cap...but everyone said bid it anyway, maybe you'll get lucky...same here?

OK, here we go...

The guys that you see or hear about that are moving from one FO position to another have been here a while. More importantly, they were here prior to the signing of the new IBB. This makes a huge difference because those guys only had a two year seat lock and they had already gone past their seat lock expiration dates. The contract states that the company has the right to waive a crew member's seat lock if there are insufficient bids for that given position. I can tell you right now that the company WILL NOT waive any seat locks to fill FO positions. The reason is quite simple... $$$$$$. It is cheaper for them to keep you in your seat (that they've already paid for) and hire someone else to fill the empty seat that there was a bid out for. If they pull you out early (during your seat lock) they'll have paid for your first type rating, your next type rating, and the guy's type rating they hire to fill your last seat.

So here's what it means for you as a new hire getting hired AFTER the signing of the IBB...

Keep in mind that no matter if you're on seat lock or not, you'll always be eligible to upgrade. I'll talk about the seat lock requirements later on.

Your seat lock starts the first day of ground school. It's a 39 month seat lock. After that 39th month, you have the right to switch airplanes (to another FO position) if you wish. Let's say you chose to do just that. Your new seat lock starts the day you receive the bid award for the new airplane. That's a 39 month seat lock as well. Now from here, one of two things will happen. You'll either upgrade to PIC in the airplane you're in, or you'll upgrade into a different airplane.

If you upgrade in the airplane you're presently in, nothing happens to your original seat lock. Meaning that there will be NO more time added onto the time you already still have left (if any).

If you upgrade into another fleet, a new 39 month seat lock will be added onto whatever seat lock time you still have.

So here are a few common cases that you may see:

You get hired into the 400XP and you initial seat lock starts 1/1/08. You're seat locked in that airplane until 4/1/11. On April 1st you get an FO bid on the Citation X. Your new seat lock would then go from 4/1/11 until 7/1/14. If you were to get a PIC bid during that time in the X, then the original seat lock would remain current.

BUT... Let's say you get a PIC bid in the CE-680 a year later (4/1/12). You would now be looking at a new 39 month seat lock AS WELL as the remaining 29 months from the seat lock you had from going to the X. In this case you would be seat locked into the CE-680 for 68 months!!!

Be very careful when playing around with the idea of playing musical chairs. This can really bite you in the long run!!!

 

[G200_PILOT]

Your 39 month equipment lock won't prevent you from upgrading into any fleet at the first opportunity, even if your original 39 months is up and you move laterally to another fleet as an FO. Say you do move laterally, you have a 39-month equipment lock. If after a year you upgrade in the same fleet, the 39-month lock does not renew itself. You will only have to be captain in that fleet for 27 months before bidding another type. However, if after a year in your new fleet as an FO you are awarded Captain in a different type, you take the rest of that equipment lock with you and add it to the 39-month lock in your new fleet. In this example, when you switch fleets for upgrade, you will have a 66-month lock in that equipment.

You and I BOTH type slow!!! Nice job man!

 

[G200_PILOT]

Thanks for the great review!

Certainly the G200 is appealing for its cockpit width on the longer flights. But I have heard people say it is not a great performer and that it flies like a "truck." Perhaps they was comparing it to the Sovereign and X which obviously perform better - performance is always relative...

See... here I was being helpful and the guy bashes my airplane!!!:crying:

Seriously though, the G200 does have a bad rap for it's take off and landing numbers. It's a runway hog without a doubt! BUT... the second it leaves the ground, it's a rocket! I've never seen a jet climb as fast as the G200 under normal situations. On a normal day, normal temps, if you rotate and pitch to about 13 degrees, you'll see 6000 fpm real quick. This is a fun airplane to take out of TEB on the TEB5 departure. The second that the gear comes up, you're pulling the throttles back half way and pitching over.

It's great!

 

[JustInfo]

Take the Beechjet or Ultra, then your job will do nothing but improve through out your career! If you start with too nice of airplane it will be a huge let down if you upgrade into a Beechjet.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Take the Beechjet or Ultra, then your job will do nothing but improve through out your career! If you start with too nice of airplane it will be a huge let down if you upgrade into a Beechjet.

That's true too!!!

 

[bchjetdrvr]

johnsonrod
Certainly the G200 is appealing for its cockpit width on the longer flights. But I have heard people say it is not a great performer and that it flies like a "truck."

I'd fly a C-172 if offered. Starting pay equal $80,000K year 1!

69k base
4k in health insurance paid
7k in pier diem

If any of you were offered the UBoat or Beechjunk would you turn down a job offer from NJA?

 

[RP170]

If any of you were offered the UBoat or Beechjunk would you turn down a job offer from NJA?

I sure didn't. I was offered the U Boat. I enjoy it so far. Get to do a lot of variety as far as the type of airports you fly into. So far, all of the PIC's are enjoyable to fly with as well. To me, it seems like the Ultra still works pretty hard. I usually do 3-4 legs per day on the tours I've worked so far. I talk to other guys that say they mostly sit around an FBO all day as well on the Ultra. I've probably sat a total of 5 hours of FBO standby since I began flying the line on December 1.

 

[johnsonrod]

I sure didn't. I was offered the U Boat. I enjoy it so far. Get to do a lot of variety as far as the type of airports you fly into. So far, all of the PIC's are enjoyable to fly with as well. To me, it seems like the Ultra still works pretty hard. I usually do 3-4 legs per day on the tours I've worked so far. I talk to other guys that say they mostly sit around an FBO all day as well on the Ultra. I've probably sat a total of 5 hours of FBO standby since I began flying the line on December 1.

Friend of mine flies an Encore out of TEB and he barely flies at all. He's thinking of bidding up to the XL or the X as an FO soon.

 

[tankerswede]

I wondered about that. I really thought I might like the X until everyone started bitching about how much "work" was involved. Glad to hear another take on it.

I just finished up the interview process a few hours ago and I can say it was a great experience. Great company you guys have here. Now the waiting starts.

They told us they are hiring into the X, Sov, Excel, and maybe the G-200 but that they had to offer airplanes to current SICs first and that they were taking the slots. So we'll see.

I interviewed earlier this month and was told the same thing. When the call finally came it was for the X or the Excel - the G-200s were all reserved for internal bid and there was no mention of the Sovereign at all. Out of the six of us hired there were four Xs, one Ultra, and I'm off to the Excel. I will echo the comment about what a positive experience the whole interview process was.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

I interviewed earlier this month and was told the same thing. When the call finally came it was for the X or the Excel - the G-200s were all reserved for internal bid and there was no mention of the Sovereign at all. Out of the six of us hired there were four Xs, one Ultra, and I'm off to the Excel. I will echo the comment about what a positive experience the whole interview process was.

Good luck to you in the XL. I just finished my XL type in toledo. If you are west coast based and get the 6 AM sim period, I wish you luck. The instructors in toledo were all pretty good and the examiners were all very straight forward. Its gonna take me the rest of the week to recover from 4 AM wake up calls (1AM body clock) The plane is pretty damn easy and if you have your SOP's, limitations, memory items and annunciator panel down cold, it will be a walk in the park. Good luck to you!

 

[av8tor4239]

I believe it is an EQUIPMENT lock, not a SEAT lock...

 

[CA1900]

I believe it is an EQUIPMENT lock, not a SEAT lock...

As of our current contract, that's correct. It's strictly an equipment lock.

In the prior contract, if an FO switched airplanes after his initial equipment lock was up, it became an equipment and seat lock in the new aircraft. That's no longer the case with the new contract.

 

[Twotter76]

OK, here we go...

The guys that you see or hear about that are moving from one FO position to another have been here a while. More importantly, they were here prior to the signing of the new IBB. This makes a huge difference because those guys only had a two year seat lock and they had already gone past their seat lock expiration dates. The contract states that the company has the right to waive a crew member's seat lock if there are insufficient bids for that given position. I can tell you right now that the company WILL NOT waive any seat locks to fill FO positions. The reason is quite simple... $$$$$$. It is cheaper for them to keep you in your seat (that they've already paid for) and hire someone else to fill the empty seat that there was a bid out for. If they pull you out early (during your seat lock) they'll have paid for your first type rating, your next type rating, and the guy's type rating they hire to fill your last seat.

This is spot on and while you are hearing a few guys doing it now, understand that even if they spend a year in whatever they bid into they would still have a 66 month seat lock if they upgraded right at a year. Thats a long time in a small jet.

I personally am one of the SICs that switched fleets however as G200_Pilot said I did it right before the new contract and thus only incurred a 24 month lock and at this rate its looking like that might even be up before I upgrade. I would not have done it if I was looking at a 39 month lock. I did bid the X btw and am looking forward to actually flying it for the first time this week.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Along with Twotter and the others, I think you'll see a good amount of the larger planes going to current NJA SIC's, given that an SIC who's switched fleets is not barred from accepting the first-available upgrade during the new equipment lock. I think you'll see a larger number of the smaller fleets and less of the Falcons, G-200's, X's and Sovereigns being offered to new-hires. But time will tell on that prediction.

 

[pilot772]

I sure didn't. I was offered the U Boat. I enjoy it so far. Get to do a lot of variety as far as the type of airports you fly into. So far, all of the PIC's are enjoyable to fly with as well. To me, it seems like the Ultra still works pretty hard. I usually do 3-4 legs per day on the tours I've worked so far. I talk to other guys that say they mostly sit around an FBO all day as well on the Ultra. I've probably sat a total of 5 hours of FBO standby since I began flying the line on December 1.

I think the U-boat is slowing down just came off a 5 day tour, only flew 4 legs, of which only one was a customer leg. picked up two 10 guys and took them down to PBI, than spent the next three days in west palm. Not to bad:beer:

 

[xpdriver]

if you want to be a radio and gear bitch all the time take the 800xp. 80% of your legs are pax and for some reason the capts have a complex about THEY do all pax legs. Thats usually the first thing they say in the first day intros. It gets old but its a good paycheck.

that being said NJA is a great company to work for. Take what ever gets you a seniority number the fastest.

go to the 800

 

[hawk2wp]

What about the Hawker 900 XP?

 

[CA1900]

The 800XP-Collins and 900XP are common enough to be operated as a single fleet. (The 800XP-Honeywell is a separate fleet.)

I hear it's a terrific airplane.