NICE Job Continental Airlines

[astroglider]

Phrogs4eversaid..."Without a legitimate emergency to declare, the Captain is forced to deal with whatever decisions are being made by people outside the airplane. Since there were no health casualties or injuries, it can be argued that the passengers were only "uncomfortable and inconvenienced" and hence, not an emergency. For those Super Captains on this board who would have incurred additional and unnecessary risk to get passengers off the plane, enjoy the comfort of your arm chair and hope you never have to make that call."

Phrogs,

Your kind of thinking is what gets us into these types of situations and I might add gets people killed. Get your head out of the "Company Manual" for a second and exercise some common sense!

Call me a Monday morning quarterback if you like, but your wrong. Had I been there the passengers would have been in the terminal within a couple of hours....not six. This was the Captains call and he/she blew it. Sure I hope I'm never in this situation...but had I been you wouldn't be reading about it in the news or on a message board.

I'm amazed there is even a debate on this...

Astro

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Phrogs4eversaid..."Without a legitimate emergency to declare, the Captain is forced to deal with whatever decisions are being made by people outside the airplane. Since there were no health casualties or injuries, it can be argued that the passengers were only "uncomfortable and inconvenienced" and hence, not an emergency. For those Super Captains on this board who would have incurred additional and unnecessary risk to get passengers off the plane, enjoy the comfort of your arm chair and hope you never have to make that call."

Phrogs,

Your kind of thinking is what gets us into these types of situations and I might add gets people killed. Get your head out of the "Company Manual" for a second and exercise some common sense!

Call me a Monday morning quarterback if you like, but your wrong. Had I been there the passengers would have been in the terminal within a couple of hours....not six. This was the Captains call and he/she blew it. Sure I hope I'm never in this situation...but had I been you wouldn't be reading about it in the news or on a message board.

I'm amazed there is even a debate on this...

Astro

How would you have gotten the pax off the airplane? Physically....

 

[Britpilot]

How would you have gotten the pax off the airplane? Physically....

With a set of stairs pushed up to the door. Simple really.

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Phrogs4eversaid..."Without a legitimate emergency to declare, the Captain is forced to deal with whatever decisions are being made by people outside the airplane. Since there were no health casualties or injuries, it can be argued that the passengers were only "uncomfortable and inconvenienced" and hence, not an emergency. For those Super Captains on this board who would have incurred additional and unnecessary risk to get passengers off the plane, enjoy the comfort of your arm chair and hope you never have to make that call."

Phrogs,

Your kind of thinking is what gets us into these types of situations and I might add gets people killed. Get your head out of the "Company Manual" for a second and exercise some common sense!

Call me a Monday morning quarterback if you like, but your wrong. Had I been there the passengers would have been in the terminal within a couple of hours....not six. This was the Captains call and he/she blew it. Sure I hope I'm never in this situation...but had I been you wouldn't be reading about it in the news or on a message board.

I'm amazed there is even a debate on this...

Astro

My focus was on the Captain's authority not being supported by the company...how exactly does that get people killed? If there's an emergency, declare it! Hyperbole is the first sign your argument is weak.

Common sense? Was anyone injured or needed medical assistance? But you would have saved the day exactly how??? Please enlighten us, to what extent and risks you would have exposed to your crew, passengers, and not to mention the company's liability in order to get off the plane. If noone supports the Captain's decision to deplane the aircraft, please tell us all how you would have physically done it at that airport, at that time, with the ground personnel and facilities available, after your conversations with ops and dispatch went unproductive. Please, enlighten us all so we will know.

If you were the Captain that night we might be debating why some grandma is suing Express Jet for a broken hip going down a not-approved ladder in the middle of the night.

Once again for the heros, the Captain can make all the hard decisions he/she wants, but if they are not supported by the appropriate agencies then it is an empty decision. Captain's authority has been eroded to the point of liability!

 

[astroglider]

I'll say it again Phrog, your kind of thinking gets people killed. You're the guy that would fail to act in time to prevent a tragidy because you were too busy worrying about what the "book" says. Sometimes you don't have that kind of time. Some situations require you to think "outside" the box/book.

So to answer your question:

After discussing the situation with my company I would then tell the station manager I am calling CNN, FoxNews etc if no airstair showed up within 20-30 minutes. Making the arguement that this has happened before...let's get the folks off the plane or there will be some bad press.

If he refused....
Then I would have gotten off the airplane. Faced with staying in the airplane all night I'm pretty sure most Captain's would have climbed down out of the airplane. If the station manager calls the police, what are they going to do arrest you. No one has broken a law or reg. until you try to depart.

1. Plead face to face with the ramp crew.

2. Drive an "approved" airstair up to the aircraft yourself if you have to...

3. Call the police if anyone tries to stop you...using the arguement that any interference with a crewmembers duty is a Federal Offense.

Bottom line: I would not sit there all night long like a prisoner. I would have tried done something.

 

[Instigator]

They're off the airplane. Now what?

 

[astroglider]

Instigator said, "They're off the airplane. Now what?"

Amazing statement. Do you really fly for a living?

Um make them as comfortable as possible in the terminal or FBO. Pax are still the Captain's responsibility...order take-out, whatever it takes. It certainly is better than remaining on-board.

Astroglider

 

[Phrogs4ever]

I'll say it again Phrog, your kind of thinking gets people killed. You're the guy that would fail to act in time to prevent a tragidy because you were too busy worrying about what the "book" says. Sometimes you don't have that kind of time. Some situations require you to think "outside" the box/book.

So to answer your question:

After discussing the situation with my company I would then tell the station manager I am calling CNN, FoxNews etc if no airstair showed up within 20-30 minutes. Making the arguement that this has happened before...let's get the folks off the plane or there will be some bad press.

If he refused....
Then I would have gotten off the airplane. Faced with staying in the airplane all night I'm pretty sure most Captain's would have climbed down out of the airplane. If the station manager calls the police, what are they going to do arrest you. No one has broken a law or reg. until you try to depart.

1. Plead face to face with the ramp crew.

2. Drive an "approved" airstair up to the aircraft yourself if you have to...

3. Call the police if anyone tries to stop you...using the arguement that any interference with a crewmembers duty is a Federal Offense.

Bottom line: I would not sit there all night long like a prisoner. I would have tried done something.

This is obviously going way over your head so this I'll keep this simple.

1. How exactly does my kind of thinking get people killed?

2. Plead with the ramp crew? That's your answer? Just like when you were pleading with everyone else, your decision doesn't mean squat if people outside the airplane don't support you.

3. So Captain, you are going to what, go down the rope ladder, commandeer an airstair and drive it up yourself. Abandon you pax and steal heavy equipment at an airport (anti-terrorism laws come to mind), operate it without training and hope somebody pats you on the back for being such a bold decision maker. Good plan.

4. Interference with a crew member...you're a thief. You are driving an unauthorized vehicle around an airport. I'm sure you won't have to call the police.

Once again, your hysterics wreak of lack of judgement and experience. For the last time, the Captain's decision requires support. If there is an emergency, declare it. And I still want to know how I get people killed.

In sixteen years of military flying and six years of commercial aviation I have certainly learned how to balance "the book" with real world situations. To date, I have done well. You can't teach experience or sound judgement, you just get it with maturity over the course of your career. I truly hope you get to that point before you have to make a newsworthy decision.

 

[astroglider]

Phrogs4ever:

1. How exactly does my kind of thinking get people killed?

One example of many...You're thinking like the two Captains on the Swissair MD-11 that burned then crashed. Instead of landing immediately...they were too busy trying to burn off fuel so they wouldn't land overweight...My point here is they blindly followed the "book" instead looking at the big picture. They had airports within a short distance in which they could have landed but they turned out to sea.

2. Plead with the ramp crew? That's your answer? Just like when you were pleading with everyone else, your decision doesn't mean squat if people outside the airplane don't support you.

Sure...face to face contact might help. Then if that does not work I'd take matters into my own hands.

3. So Captain, you are going to what, go down the rope ladder, commandeer an airstair and drive it up yourself. Abandon you pax and steal heavy equipment at an airport (anti-terrorism laws come to mind), operate it without training and hope somebody pats you on the back for being such a bold decision maker. Good plan.

Yep that's my plan, thanks. I'm not abandoning the pax btw...the F/O and F/A would be with them while I help enable their deplaning.

I spent enough time working the ramp at an FBO and in airline ops to operate a airstair...not that hard. Most airstairs btw aren't motorized. You push them up to the airplane...but I guess you'd watched enlisted folks do that instead...wouldn't want to get YOUR hands dirty. btw I worked the USAF ramp too...we had airstairs you pushed up to the aircraft, and of course the latters we hung on the F-4's.

4. Interference with a crew member...you're a thief. You are driving an unauthorized vehicle around an airport. I'm sure you won't have to call the police.

Whatever dude...your at a small town FBO. Common sense trumps whatever rules are thrown up against you by a PIG HEADED station manager from ANOTHER AIRLINE! The entire traveling public, news organizations, most airline managers and most airline employees are on my side too. Someone tries to arrest you, fine, all you have to do is talk to the news outlets. You're doing what 99% of folks know to be the right thing. No way you're going to get in trouble for that.


In sixteen years of military flying and six years of commercial aviation I have certainly learned how to balance "the book" with real world situations.

Apparently not...

You can't teach experience or sound judgement, you just get it with maturity over the course of your career. I truly hope you get to that point before you have to make a newsworthy decision.

So Phrogs you would have just sat there maturally for the entire night, in the airplane making your pax suffer?
....I wouldn't call that mature...I'd call it Stupid...

Astro
ps. Phrogs4ever are you a USAFA grad? Just curious.

 

[Hutchman]

Just a few facts:

Last flight out of Rochester 6:10pm

Terminal was closed, lights out no one home, all locked up

Ground, Tower, Approach control- Closed at 11pm

Manager called at home by dispatcher

Passengers let off plane when the normal ops/ramp showed up for the morning flight.

---------------------

For those who want to declare an emergency, you would have to call Center. I am not too sure what they could do for you since you are safely on the ground.

It is easy to Monday morning QB. Options were limited. I can assure you neither of the pilots had ever been to Rochester and most likely never will again. The investigation does not blame the pilots. Investigations normally Always find blame with the pilots.

While the situation was far from ideal, the pilots did not have any good options with the airport manager and dispatch no helping. Fire the dispatcher and time for a new airport manager.