New Pilot Certification Requirements for Air Carrier Operations

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I think the real fix is discipline, personal responsibility and integrity...all things that we can not write a rule for.

Or mommy and daddy can't pay for?

 

[pilotyip]

Hours do not determine a pilot's ability. The military tunes out very cable pilots who at 1000 hrs are very well qualified. However there is a screening process with some pretty tuff entrance requirements, tuff course completion standards, and a continuing training process. I see this same stupidity with airline and insurance hiring standards, no we can not hire that guy he only has 1100 hours, our mins are 1500. But this guy is all MEL TJ, he was an EC-135 A/C. Nope he is not qualified, but another applicant shows up with 1600 hours of 1350 are in a C-150, how there is the breakfast of champions for airline hiring. He is a sad process to hang everything on numbers.

 

[Fly2AK]

Hours do not determine a pilot's ability. The military tunes out very cable pilots who at 1000 hrs are very well qualified. However there is a screening process with some pretty tuff entrance requirements, tuff course completion standards, and a continuing training process. I see this same stupidity with airline and insurance hiring standards, no we can not hire that guy he only has 1100 hours, our mins are 1500. But this guy is all MEL TJ, he was an EC-135 A/C. Nope he is not qualified, but another applicant shows up with 1600 hours of 1350 are in a C-150, how there is the breakfast of champions for airline hiring. He is a sad process to hang everything on numbers.

Don't know of any majors that hire pilots whose majority flight experience is light cessna's, especially these days. I have done my time in the military as well as with the regional and majors. The military screening process isn't perfect as you seem to convey. As for a continuing training process, well that is a standard at all 121 and 135 airlines.

 

[Beaver79]

Don't know of any majors that hire pilots whose majority flight experience is light cessna's, especially these days. I have done my time in the military as well as with the regional and majors. The military screening process isn't perfect as you seem to convey. As for a continuing training process, well that is a standard at all 121 and 135 airlines.

I don't think he is saying its perfect. What he is saying is that the initial process is significantly better at ensuring a certain - minimum - level of quality. The washout rate is significantly lower than in the past - different equipment, different teaching methods, different standards, pilot tracks etc. Hours are not a predictor of the quality of flight time nor the quality of the pilot. As all of us know, the hiring process at most airlines is a crapshoot. Some use line pilots in the interviewing process, some HR, some have psychological testing, some written testing, some sim flying - there is very little continuity. I think a definite process of hiring - a minimum amount of verification, testing etc would go a long way to judging the ability and apptitude of a pilot. Unfortunatley, I don't think the FAA or Congress is truly interested in fixing the problem. They are interested in telling the public they've solved it with these "measures", but the measures hold little ability to truly solve the problem. Does having another ATP certificate in the cockpit make it safer? I'd say not. If you have a 15K ATP in the left seat and a 15K commercial pilot or ATP in the right seat, does it really matter??? The training is the same for the airplane.

 

[pilotyip]

More info

Don't know of any majors that hire pilots whose majority flight experience is light cessna's, especially these days. I have done my time in the military as well as with the regional and majors. The military screening process isn't perfect as you seem to convey. As for a continuing training process, well that is a standard at all 121 and 135 airlines.

I wasn't talking majors, we were talking about the new 1500 hr mins to get into the regionals. My example was a guy they could not hire even though he was more qualiifed than hte 1500 SEL guy. By driving strickly to a number, with no one to chose from the 1500 SEL gets the job. BTW 121 and 135 do not train like the military. In the mil we had PQS sign ofs and qualifiaction boxes to check on almost every flight. Very rarely did you ever fly from point A t opoint B without completing a training evolution. The nwhe nyou became an AC you started being the guy giving hte training. I know it is not lijke tha in the 121 or 135 worlds where I have worked. six month checks or traiing, on occasionoal line observation. But mostly point A to point B flights

 

[SIG600]

None. It is only listed because schools like Embry Riddle are lobbying for it.

Actual cockpit experience, or nothing. We need to set a standard.

As an Embry Riddle grad, I'm here to tell you there's not a damn thing they teach that substitutes for actual experience.

 

[Caveman]

Having an ATP as a minimum baseline is a good starting point. It shouldn't matter whether your background is miltary or civilian. I don't care how you get the hours. If you have an ATP that represents a minimum standard of performance and you have at least a certain amount of experience.

I'm not crazy about the special air carrier endorsement nonsense. Nobody can fly for an air carrier until they pass the in-house training so what's the point?

I think type rating everybody is a good idea. It's just one more way to raise the standard a bit.

 

[inline]

CFI time is not that different than pilot monitoring time at a carrier.

If a CFI cannot log the time, then regional FOs should not be able to either.

In fact, a CFII in actual has at least as much going on as a regional FO.

Bull. Instructors spend nearly all their time in simulated IMC. You cannot replace actual line flying experience in IMC conditions.

 

[inline]

experience counts- but not as much as building a solid foundation. Teach responsibility and discipline. The academics in aviation are way too lax. It allows any undisciplined idiot to make it to the experience part of the game. We increase the academics, and those with the discipline and will power to get through it will make the industry safer.

no one here can argue for the ridiculous 3 choice memorization ritual known as our writtens. They are moronic.

If you're too dumb or lazy to get through a JAA type academic program- you shouldn't be flying.
If you don't like modeling after europeans - then let's model the academics in the civilian world after the US navy.

Not so. There is no evidence that the Europeans with their written exams have a better safety record that U.S. pilots.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The airlines are fishing for the balance between low flying experience and acceptable hull losses. 3407 was an instance where they got the hook stuck in their thumb. The demands of the job are not static. In the 60s there were a few ILS's coming on board but plenty of Non precision approaches and some non-radar stuff. Fast forward to the 90's and now and you have a system being reduced to managed approaches (ILS and RNAV) and an ATC system that can't accomodate traffic missing approaches at the destination, so they impose ground stops. Very few air carrier pilots operate in an environment close to the limits of their ability. Therefore airlines will reduce their training requirements correspondingly and search for a candidate to train whose skill set meets these lowered requirements. These types of folks aren't worth as much money as the pilots of old, so they set the new lower market rates.

The FAA didn't need to do anything in light of 3407, the public will get on anything that's painted the same as their Frequent Flyer Visa card.

 

[xjhawk]

In summary the FAA is investigating the effect of enacting one or a combination of the following options:

1. Requirement for all pilots employed in part 121 air carrier operations to hold an
Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate with the appropriate aircraft category, class,
and type rating, or meet the aeronautical experience requirements of an ATP
certificate.

2. Academic Training as a Substitute for Flight Hours Experience.

3. Endorsement for Air Carrier Operations

4. New additional authorization on an existing pilot certificate.

These guys never get anything right. Its the low time guys who are dangerous in many situations! Just because someone spends150k on school does not make them experienced (which I believe is why there is a min time on the ATP, flight time experience gives insight in your safety)

 

[ackattacker]

The solution to this problem does not lie in congress or the FAA. The solution is for airlines to raise the bar for hiring and upgrade - meaningful background checks, meaningful sim-rides, academically challenging interviews and course evaluations. Something along the lines of the process to get hired at Cathay or Emirates. Of course that would limit the pool of new-hires so they would have to pay more to attract the motivated and talented pilots. Therefore it will never happen.

 

[waveflyer]

Not so. There is no evidence that the Europeans with their written exams have a better safety record that U.S. pilots.

Nothing replaces experience- on that front we have it right-
the minimum academics are a joke, however-
the combination of academics and experience wins
-------
bring up the bird- bullsh!t
go back to your pu$$y desk job. I've seen way too many needle and pointer pilots get all kinds of confused in today's rnp world to believe that pilots of yesteryear were more valuable.

We are highly unionized- our wages have fallen as the country got tired of union antics and even we stopped voting for people who support our collective bargaining-
we don't make a free market wage- the dynamics of the system we negotiate in are way more political (both in house and federally) and complex than your weak assertions

 

[SIG600]

The FAA didn't need to do anything in light of 3407, the public will get on anything that's painted the same as their Frequent Flyer Visa card.

I would bet 99% of the flying public is totally unaware of the debate going on over this accident. In 12 months it will be totally forgotten and people won't have slowed down one bit taking the cheapest fare they can find on orbitz. While I hesitate to say that no one cares, the reality is that it's not going to change anything in the public eye.

 

[pipejockey]

CFI time is not that different than pilot monitoring time at a carrier.

If a CFI cannot log the time, then regional FOs should not be able to either.

In fact, a CFII in actual has at least as much going on as a regional FO.

Why just regional FO's? Why will mainline FO's be able to log time but RJ FO's can't?