New Pilot Certification Requirements for Air Carrier Operations

[xanderman]

This is an ANPRM document...

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/media/2010-02643_PI.pdf

 

[samballs]

Can u summarize I have a 17 month old telling me I'm a retard for being in this job.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

In summary the FAA is investigating the effect of enacting one or a combination of the following options:

1. Requirement for all pilots employed in part 121 air carrier operations to hold an
Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate with the appropriate aircraft category, class,
and type rating, or meet the aeronautical experience requirements of an ATP
certificate.

2. Academic Training as a Substitute for Flight Hours Experience.

3. Endorsement for Air Carrier Operations

4. New additional authorization on an existing pilot certificate.

 

[IslandDriver]

The issue I have with the part for an endorsement for 121 ops would be that there will be "Pilot Mills" that will charge for such a thing and we will continue the race to the bottom because people will continue to pay for their experience.

Correct me if I am wrong: This is coming out of the CJC 3407 Accident and the captain was a Gulfstream Academy guy and I bet they will get the authorization to give such an endorsement.

The sad thing is I think this is a knee jerk reaction. 3407 was caused by a lack of situational awareness (not knowing that their airspeed was slow..thus not even realizing they were in a stall), a lack of basic flying skills (stall recovery), and a lack of cockpit discipline (chatter and banter for the entire flight by a captain to their FO). Not paying attention to the duty at hand...like flying an approach in "Gentleman's IFR" conditions.

Look in the past...just as short ago as 2002 the competitive mins for a regional was like 2000 hours. Right now when hiring resumes it will be about the same because of the lack of movement right now.

In my past I have trained guys at the regional level at 400 hours...many were good and many were bad....but the sad part is the reason had more to do with very basic flying skills. Some of the best came from local FBO's...people who learned to fly from people that taught for like 20 years...not instuctors at universities that were teaching at 250 hours....you realize that the universities teach new pilots with new pilots. ( I know not everybody at universities are 200 hr CFI's but many are).

Look at the medical industry....Doctors and Nurses that teach new Doctor's and Nurses have a lot more experience than what we allow new pilots to teach new pilots. Perhalps we should make CFI's have 1500 hours before they can teach. Sure then the argument would be what are we going to do to get experience. This can go round and round...like what came first the chicken or the egg.

I hate to see arbitrary rules that look like we fixed the problem where the real problem was simply a lack of flight discipline. I think 1500 hours will be better but there are a lot of guys out there that are better at 400 hours than 1500 hours.....

I think the real fix is discipline, personal responsibility and integrity...all things that we can not write a rule for.

Any hoo....too much beer and pizza.

 

[RoundMotor]

The issue I have with the part for an endorsement for 121 ops would be that there will be "Pilot Mills" that will charge for such a thing and we will continue the race to the bottom because people will continue to pay for their experience.

Correct me if I am wrong: This is coming out of the CJC 3407 Accident and the captain was a Gulfstream Academy guy and I bet they will get the authorization to give such an endorsement.

The sad thing is I think this is a knee jerk reaction. 3407 was caused by a lack of situational awareness (not knowing that their airspeed was slow..thus not even realizing they were in a stall), a lack of basic flying skills (stall recovery), and a lack of cockpit discipline (chatter and banter for the entire flight by a captain to their FO). Not paying attention to the duty at hand...like flying an approach in "Gentleman's IFR" conditions.

Look in the past...just as short ago as 2002 the competitive mins for a regional was like 2000 hours. Right now when hiring resumes it will be about the same because of the lack of movement right now.

In my past I have trained guys at the regional level at 400 hours...many were good and many were bad....but the sad part is the reason had more to do with very basic flying skills. Some of the best came from local FBO's...people who learned to fly from people that taught for like 20 years...not instuctors at universities that were teaching at 250 hours....you realize that the universities teach new pilots with new pilots. ( I know not everybody at universities are 200 hr CFI's but many are).

Look at the medical industry....Doctors and Nurses that teach new Doctor's and Nurses have a lot more experience than what we allow new pilots to teach new pilots. Perhalps we should make CFI's have 1500 hours before they can teach. Sure then the argument would be what are we going to do to get experience. This can go round and round...like what came first the chicken or the egg.

I hate to see arbitrary rules that look like we fixed the problem where the real problem was simply a lack of flight discipline. I think 1500 hours will be better but there are a lot of guys out there that are better at 400 hours than 1500 hours.....

I think the real fix is discipline, personal responsibility and integrity...all things that we can not write a rule for.

Any hoo....too much beer and pizza.
__________________

I think your Statement is perfect.

 

[SIG600]

What academic experience replaces 1500 hours of time??

 

[Metro752]

None. It is only listed because schools like Embry Riddle are lobbying for it.

Actual cockpit experience, or nothing. We need to set a standard.

 

[AA717driver]

We'll end up like Ryannair with 200 hour 737 FO's from "Approved Cadet Programs".

It'll be ok, the ATA said so...

TC

 

[CFI2766]

The immediate way to fix this is to no longer count hours logged as a CFI as PIC.

Those that want to CFI, will. They will be paid more, and will be able to make a living sharing valid knowledge, not simply holding on until they have the mins to get an airline job. Quality of instruction will go up, the quality of the finished product, the students, will go up as well. It's a win/win.

 

[livin'thesim]

CFI time is not that different than pilot monitoring time at a carrier.

If a CFI cannot log the time, then regional FOs should not be able to either.

In fact, a CFII in actual has at least as much going on as a regional FO.

 

[Superpilot92]

http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/111_HR_3371.html

VOTE HERE about this

 

[Mike man]

We'll end up like Ryannair with 200 hour 737 FO's from "Approved Cadet Programs".

It'll be ok, the ATA said so...

TC

Yeah...cause which airline has the worst safety record of any airline in the history of the world? Not Ryan...not Gulfstream...but one of the hardest places to get a job and take only people with years and years of experience...it is right here in the USA...in MEM, that's right starts with a Fed and ends with an Ex...FedEx.

 

[waveflyer]

experience counts- but not as much as building a solid foundation. Teach responsibility and discipline. The academics in aviation are way too lax. It allows any undisciplined idiot to make it to the experience part of the game. We increase the academics, and those with the discipline and will power to get through it will make the industry safer.

no one here can argue for the ridiculous 3 choice memorization ritual known as our writtens. They are moronic.

If you're too dumb or lazy to get through a JAA type academic program- you shouldn't be flying.
If you don't like modeling after europeans - then let's model the academics in the civilian world after the US navy.

 

[Oh-ryan]

In summary the FAA is investigating the effect of enacting one or a combination of the following options:

1. Requirement for all pilots employed in part 121 air carrier operations to hold an
Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate with the appropriate aircraft category, class,
and type rating, or meet the aeronautical experience requirements of an ATP
certificate.

2. Academic Training as a Substitute for Flight Hours Experience.

3. Endorsement for Air Carrier Operations

4. New additional authorization on an existing pilot certificate.

All this on top of the "English Proficient" endorsement? Damn you FAA!

 

[www.]

Can u summarize I have a 17 month old telling me I'm a retard for being in this job.

Is he doing the E Trade commercials too?

 

[www.]

I think the real fix is discipline, personal responsibility and integrity...all things that we can not write a rule for.

Or mommy and daddy can't pay for?

 

[pilotyip]

Hours do not determine a pilot's ability. The military tunes out very cable pilots who at 1000 hrs are very well qualified. However there is a screening process with some pretty tuff entrance requirements, tuff course completion standards, and a continuing training process. I see this same stupidity with airline and insurance hiring standards, no we can not hire that guy he only has 1100 hours, our mins are 1500. But this guy is all MEL TJ, he was an EC-135 A/C. Nope he is not qualified, but another applicant shows up with 1600 hours of 1350 are in a C-150, how there is the breakfast of champions for airline hiring. He is a sad process to hang everything on numbers.

 

[Fly2AK]

Hours do not determine a pilot's ability. The military tunes out very cable pilots who at 1000 hrs are very well qualified. However there is a screening process with some pretty tuff entrance requirements, tuff course completion standards, and a continuing training process. I see this same stupidity with airline and insurance hiring standards, no we can not hire that guy he only has 1100 hours, our mins are 1500. But this guy is all MEL TJ, he was an EC-135 A/C. Nope he is not qualified, but another applicant shows up with 1600 hours of 1350 are in a C-150, how there is the breakfast of champions for airline hiring. He is a sad process to hang everything on numbers.

Don't know of any majors that hire pilots whose majority flight experience is light cessna's, especially these days. I have done my time in the military as well as with the regional and majors. The military screening process isn't perfect as you seem to convey. As for a continuing training process, well that is a standard at all 121 and 135 airlines.

 

[Beaver79]

Don't know of any majors that hire pilots whose majority flight experience is light cessna's, especially these days. I have done my time in the military as well as with the regional and majors. The military screening process isn't perfect as you seem to convey. As for a continuing training process, well that is a standard at all 121 and 135 airlines.

I don't think he is saying its perfect. What he is saying is that the initial process is significantly better at ensuring a certain - minimum - level of quality. The washout rate is significantly lower than in the past - different equipment, different teaching methods, different standards, pilot tracks etc. Hours are not a predictor of the quality of flight time nor the quality of the pilot. As all of us know, the hiring process at most airlines is a crapshoot. Some use line pilots in the interviewing process, some HR, some have psychological testing, some written testing, some sim flying - there is very little continuity. I think a definite process of hiring - a minimum amount of verification, testing etc would go a long way to judging the ability and apptitude of a pilot. Unfortunatley, I don't think the FAA or Congress is truly interested in fixing the problem. They are interested in telling the public they've solved it with these "measures", but the measures hold little ability to truly solve the problem. Does having another ATP certificate in the cockpit make it safer? I'd say not. If you have a 15K ATP in the left seat and a 15K commercial pilot or ATP in the right seat, does it really matter??? The training is the same for the airplane.

 

[pilotyip]

More info

Don't know of any majors that hire pilots whose majority flight experience is light cessna's, especially these days. I have done my time in the military as well as with the regional and majors. The military screening process isn't perfect as you seem to convey. As for a continuing training process, well that is a standard at all 121 and 135 airlines.

I wasn't talking majors, we were talking about the new 1500 hr mins to get into the regionals. My example was a guy they could not hire even though he was more qualiifed than hte 1500 SEL guy. By driving strickly to a number, with no one to chose from the 1500 SEL gets the job. BTW 121 and 135 do not train like the military. In the mil we had PQS sign ofs and qualifiaction boxes to check on almost every flight. Very rarely did you ever fly from point A t opoint B without completing a training evolution. The nwhe nyou became an AC you started being the guy giving hte training. I know it is not lijke tha in the 121 or 135 worlds where I have worked. six month checks or traiing, on occasionoal line observation. But mostly point A to point B flights