New Flight Dept????

[some_dude]

The Falcon 50 is a wonderful airplane. Keep in mind, though, that they are getting old and having various age-related problems-- corrosion, especially.

If your principal can swing the up-front cost, an alternative to the 50 could be a new Citation Sovereign-- similar size cabin, slightly shorter range, slightly slower, but much cheaper to operate. The Sovereign was designed to do anything an 800XP can do, and do it better. Something to think about, anyway.

 

[Rick1128]

It all really depends on what the boss wants. All the mentioned aircraft will do what he wants done.

G3. Support from Gulstream is fantastic. I have heard it is not as good on the G2s and 3s as it is with the 4s and 5s. But it is much better than Ski-doo Jet. Yu can get a good one for well under $10m. But it comes down to either you pay upfront or you pay later. Later with the G3 is fuel bills. And it appears to be much more aircraft than you boss needs.

Challenger. Support $ucks. Period. Skidoo can not spell support let alone customer service.. Plus you add the fact that the aircraft seems to be very unforgiving of airframe icing and w&b issues. More so than most other bizjets.

DA50. Excellent high hot performance. Overbuilt, so it is heavier than most other aircraft per pound of gross weight. High time aircraft not a problem. I used to fly a 20 with over 27K hours. Still a solid airframe. DA20 flight controls used to leak hydraulics quite a bit. I have not heard much of this sort of problem in the 50's. TFE731s are reliable engines. Lots of mods available.

Hawker. Solid airframe. typically british construction. TKS is a bloody pain in the arse. Again TFE 731 are reliable with several engine mods available. 700s are underpowered dogs. 800s have much better performance. My biggest issue with the 800XP is that it is built by Raytheon instead of BAE. Raytheon is not hawker type people and they put TRs on the aircraft as standard. If you look at all the BAE built aircraft, you will see very few with TRs as the aircraft really doesn't need them. Just additional weight and maintenance cost. The rear coat closet if installed adds additional baggage space.

An important thing to keep in mind, DO NOT over buy. While it would be nice to fly a bigger aircraft, the department will not last too long if the boss is unhappy with the costs.

 

[rice]

An important thing to keep in mind, DO NOT over buy. While it would be nice to fly a bigger aircraft, the department will not last too long if the boss is unhappy with the costs.

Important point #2, DO NOT BUY AN AIRCRAFT WHICH JUST BARELY MEETS YOUR NEEDS TODAY!!!!!! Boss will not be happy when the airframe limits his mobility in the near future, (yeah I know you found him the one that fit his current needs) and he now has to go buy another plane to replace it. JMHO, but I've been down this road before.
A good rule is over buy by about 15-20% of what your needs are today. Usually allows for a bit of growth in mission without breaking the boss' bank. If played right it also shows your ability to look into the future while being concious of current costs.

 

[ghostrider64]

Don't know about the Falcons but those Hawkers are great airplanes....Built like tanks and great reliability....I miss mine... I flew 800XP with honeywell...Comfortable cockpit as well

 

[Rick1128]

I have been down this road before also. But you still don't over buy. If he needs a Lear 35 now, you do not buy a Gulfstream because someday he "MAY" fly to Hawaii. You buy a Hawker or a Lear 60 or the like because his company will grow to utilize that aircraft. Then again, you also need to ask him what he intends to use the aircraft for. Is it to grow the company or for his personal transportation? I have also seen companies that have purchased too large an aircraft for their needs or their future needs and the department didn't last too long. There has to be a practical limit to how far in the future you look.

My biggest issue with Hawkers is their maintenance schedules. If you fly alot they can be frustrating.

Important point #2, DO NOT BUY AN AIRCRAFT WHICH JUST BARELY MEETS YOUR NEEDS TODAY!!!!!! Boss will not be happy when the airframe limits his mobility in the near future, (yeah I know you found him the one that fit his current needs) and he now has to go buy another plane to replace it. JMHO, but I've been down this road before.
A good rule is over buy by about 15-20% of what your needs are today. Usually allows for a bit of growth in mission without breaking the boss' bank. If played right it also shows your ability to look into the future while being concious of current costs.

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

It's good to see someone with the charge of starting a new department and ego is not part of the process. Kudos to you for shooting striaght. Here is some more of that straight shooting. If this offens anyone, I'm sorry, but lets call a spade a spade.


G3.
Like previously mentioned, the support is unbeatable. I know Gulfstream has a G100/Astra that the person answering the phone has the authority to launch to solve an AOG problem. That says a lot. I do not know if they support something as old as a GIII, but they might. With that said, a GIII would be a poor choice. In the not too distant future, there will be so few airports that allow that plane to operate to and from that your choices will be limited. It's because of the gas guzzling engines and the noise they make. Say what you will about hush kits and all that jazz, but forget it. They are noise beasts and they will not change no matter what is done to try and quiet them up. You'll then be stuck with it. Nobody going to buy that thing from you with all it's issues. This plane is a great performer. 3K FPM all the way into the 40s. It's fast too, but the noise is a deal breaker. If some salesman tried to push that on you, please send him packing. Great airplane for making noise and helping you lose your job if the boss buys one on your reccomendation.

Challenger. Nothing can touch the Challenger's cabin. It's great. As mentioned previously, the support is disgusting here. I know 3 seperate operators that operate Bombardier porducts and were looking at another one of their products, and because of their support, the bombardier aircraft is now off the table. They make good airplanes, but if it's AOG and there is nobody to support it, what good is it. I think the folks in Canada are just lazy. I have also heard the Challenger 300 is a whole nother deal. Support, tech reps, ect are all seperate and they are kind of like their own company within a company. Distanced from Bombardier. It's my opinion is too little too late. You'll find a Bombardier apoligist from time to time. When that happens, ask him what the most commonly broken part on their aircraft is. Then tell them to call bombardier with you right there and ask how long it would take if you needed that part right away. Silence.............................Great 3000NM airplane.

DA50. All out GREAT airplane. I was surprised that nobody has mentioned that the 50 cannot be loaded to MGW. Not a limitation, but there is just so much available weight that you cannot get to it. Will a full bag of gas and seats full, you are still well over 1000 pounds away from MGTOW!!!! That leading edge slat will get you slow and in and out of Aspen year round. Lose 2 engines and it'll still go on 1! Hook it up right and it'll rip the gates off of hell. Forward speed in the climb: You don't have to give up one to get the other. Will climb at 280+ all day long to .80. YOu'll be moving along across the ground all the while keeping an impressive ROC. You realy can't go wrong here. PArts can be expensive, but a call to TEB will get them Fedex or C2C in short order. Landing gear is built like a tank. You could land that plane on a carrier. Great 2500NM airplane.

Hawker. Good airplane. West to East all year long no problem. East to West all year long as well, but you'll have to fly it at LRC .70! It'll take a long time to get to where you aer going. TKS works great, but you must keep them active, even when not expecting icing. If you drip the wings on the ground for 5 minutes before each flight, problems will be few. What happens is the WX gets nice and people forget about doing this. IT also allows you to see which panels are working and which ones are not. If you do this, you'll have a great Anti-ice system with few problems. No matter the WX, drip those wings on the ground. 700s are dogs. People buy them with TRs and have them removed. No other reason than the performance penalty. At altitude, you'll notice the the extra 550lbs when you are trying to accelerate. You have to climb a Hawker fast, or it will just hang there at the TOC. In an 800A, 280/.68 is about as slow as you want to get it if you want it to speed up right away at cruise. That'll give you a decent, not great, but decent ROC and a great speed across the ground. Baggage space is for the birds, otherwise a good airplane. This is a great 1000-1400NM airplane. It'll do more, but the cabin will start to close in on you.

 

[G100driver]

757, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the G100/Astra for aircraft under warranty only? I do not believe that a GIII would qualify.

PS BTW the CL-601/604 cabin is quite noisy. One of the reasons we did not purchase. The engines are very close to the "living" section of the cabin.