New FAA rest rules

[PA31Driver]

New FAA rest rules are out!

http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=11839

 

[79%N1]

9 hrs. Reducable to 8? (Ha)

 

[CFI2766]

"...Rather, the rest period would
begin once the flightcrew members reach the hotel. The FAA’s proposal does not change
the intent of the ARC to generally assure an 8-hour sleep opportunity. However, the
FAA believes that time in transit is not rest. In addition, the agency is concerned that
allowing this time to be included in the rest period could result in a reduction in actual​

rest opportunity below 8 hours..."

Pg. 85.


Finally, behind the door rest. Someone, somewhere, recognizes that time in transit is not 'rest'.

 

[the palm]

Bye bye naps, CDO's, stand-ups, high speeds or whatever your airline calls them. Good riddance I say.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Could someone, like, cliffs this?

I don't feel like reading all that text.

[/college graduate]

 

[JoeMerchant]

Could someone, like, cliffs this?

I don't feel like reading all that text.

[/college graduate]

Cliff notes version:

There will still be 9 hour overnights with early duty in's that you will be tired when you go to work...In addition, it will be harder to build 3 day trips and the really good CDO's/Naps will no longer be legal...only the really short CDO's/naps will be legal...

 

[Abernathy]

All this BS going back and forth for new landmark rest regulation for....wait for it....9 hours rest?

Is this a friggen joke?

 

[Abernathy]

Cliff notes version:

There will still be 9 hour overnights with early duty in's that you will be tired when you go to work...In addition, it will be harder to build 3 day trips and the really good CDO's/Naps will no longer be legal...only the really short CDO's/naps will be legal...

Don't worry Joe, it'll take like 4 years for this to go into effect. That's assuming it even passes.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Don't worry Joe, it'll take like 4 years for this to go into effect. That's assuming it even passes.

I hope your right...but I doubt it.

 

[deadstick]

No, I think the CDOs are still a go. You are not going on rest when you go to the hotel. You can do 2 leg with a 2200 show and be on duty until 0830. If I'm missing something let me know.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, I think the CDOs are still a go. You are not going on rest when you go to the hotel. You can do 2 leg with a 2200 show and be on duty until 0830. If I'm missing something let me know.

Look at the duty time allowance depending on duty in time. We have some cushy CDO's at ASA that get close to 14 hours of duty time...They have 8 hours and sometimes more on the ground. You can get good sleep and make good money. Those won't be legal anymore. Only the short CDO's will still be legal.

CDO's will still be a go....Only the really good ones with lots of rest will be illegal.....

 

[OCP]

Don't worry Joe, it'll take like 4 years for this to go into effect. That's assuming it even passes.

I think I read somewhere that it has to be in place by Aug 2011.

 

[OCP]

9 hrs. Reducable to 8? (Ha)

Its 9 hrs min at the hotel and reducible only if the company and the PIC agree too it.

 

[AvroJockey]

This is very good for the industry and actually addresses cumulative fatigue, sector fatigue, and circadian rhythms. The new rules tend to parallel what the EU currently has, which is a duty and flight time limits based on a leg number and duty start matrix. Also the cumulative duty time limits rather than cumulative flight time limits.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Its 9 hrs min at the hotel and reducible only if the company and the PIC agree too it.

So we can expect a chief pilot to phone us every night to discuss this discretion thing..

 

[JoeMerchant]

So we can expect a chief pilot to phone us every night to discuss this discretion thing..

Under the old rules, I've used the fatigue flag and never been contacted...

 

[Abernathy]

The new max duty rules are 9-13 depending on segments? Anyone have any details on that?

 

[CFI2766]

Under the old rules, I've used the fatigue flag and never been contacted...

In general, certain Chief Pilots aside, the current management at ASA has handled fatigue very gently. There are other places, Colgan, Great Lakes, Gulfstream, Mesa, et al, that handle fatigue in a much more draconian fashion.

Good:

-9 hours of actual rest, as in time behind the door.

-No contact while in rest.

-PIC concurrence for fatigue calls.

-No discipline for fatigue calls.

There are some good things here, but there is some fluff, too. It does look like the better naps take a hit, but we don't even know the 'unintended consequences' of this, yet.

 

[Kaman]

Careful what we wished for...We might not like the final result, and the impact on an already stressed industry is going to be huge as well when you factor in the other elements of this law. SOMETHING will make it thru the NPRM process, it is required by law. AQP/CQP in two years, ATP in three years...This is all a done deal by law. What I am wondering is how this is going to make it thru the regulatory process within the FAA. What we are seeing is a VERY different way of regulating the industry, because congress became involved and didn't really cost this law and it's impact on the flying public and industry. The FAA and industry at the same time have only themselves to blame for getting this rammed down their collective throat. There is nothing new here, these issues have been brought up before and quietly squashed by the FAA and industry...Why? COSTS TOO DAMNED MUCH.
Just a prediction...The costs of this law will be passed onto the flying public in the form of higher fares, reduced service/capacity and the airlines will be crying poor to labor again...Setting off an even greater economic downturn in the airline industry. And, in the final analysis, are we safer? Interesting question to ponder when the effects of this law can be measured.
See what happens when you get politicians involved in aviation?

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[Abernathy]

Only solution is government takeover. Certain industries are inherently unable to function safetly and in a stable manner under a capitalist system. Greed trumps safety, something we cannot afford in aviation. Government takeover is the pill this industry needs.

 

[sayrejm]

This should get interesting....

 

[OCP]

The new max duty rules are 9-13 depending on segments? Anyone have any details on that?

If you go to the govt site at the bottom of the PDF there are charts that address this.

 

[Yodafly]

9 hours rest from time you get to hotel is a good change...saves lots of arguments with crew scheduling about adequate rest

 

[Andrew_VT]

Just a prediction...The costs of this law will be passed onto the flying public in the form of higher fares, reduced service/capacity and the airlines will be crying poor to labor again...Setting off an even greater economic downturn in the airline industry.

Pilot costs factor into the total cost of an airline ticket a whole lot less than you've been deluded to believe.

Lets pretend that these rules increase pilot labor costs 20% (my overly conservative estimate). What % increase in ticket price do you think this would this be responsible for? Do you really think that is that enough to "set off an even greater economic downturn in the airline industry"?

 

[P38JLightning]

Only solution is government takeover. Certain industries are inherently unable to function safetly and in a stable manner under a capitalist system. Greed trumps safety, something we cannot afford in aviation. Government takeover is the pill this industry needs.

So you think the glory days of regulation will return and you can buy that new loaded cadillac with a month's pay, 500/hr left seat 300/hr right seat, blah blah blah? Airlines will fly 20% load factor 3 crew 727's to every airport in the country weather it needs it or not and the government will protect your seniority list by proxy. Riiiiiiight. You really think re-regulation or worse, nationalization, will make things BETTER? You will troll through the terminal with 4 hot flight attendants on each arm and get R-E-S-P-E-C-T?

Ain't gonna happen, and believe me, you don't want it to. It will NOT end up like that.

 

[CX880]

If you work at a decent place you should be getting 9-12 hours of rest anyways. This probably won't benefit many other than the pilots that fly for the fly by night regionals.

 

[Max Q]

Surprisingly, no mention of the proposed changes to daily flight time limitations...

Source: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/media/FAA_2010_22626.pdf (page 43)

Initial ARC discussion of FDPs assumed that, as is the case in CAP-371 and the EASA regulations, there would be no daily limit on flight time. Instead flight time would effectively be limited to approximately 2 hours less than the FDP because FDP assumes a flightcrew member will report for duty an hour and a half before flying and will spend approximately 30 minutes after completing all flying for the day completing paperwork. In that context, the maximum amount of time flying during the middle of the day could increase from the current 8 hours to as much as 11 hours, almost a 50 percent increase. The ARC noted that the FAA may decide that daily limits on flight time are still needed and proposed a variable flight time based on the hour of the day.

 

[OCP]

Surprisingly, no mention of the proposed changes to daily flight time limitations...

Source: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/media/FAA_2010_22626.pdf (page 43)

Most of that is only talking about discussion that the ARC had. Their final rules cap flight time from 8 - 10 hrs depending on legs and time of day. The charts are the last few pages of the document.

 

[ex j-41]

So you think the glory days of regulation will return and you can buy that new loaded cadillac with a month's pay, 500/hr left seat 300/hr right seat, blah blah blah? Airlines will fly 20% load factor 3 crew 727's to every airport in the country weather it needs it or not and the government will protect your seniority list by proxy. Riiiiiiight. You really think re-regulation or worse, nationalization, will make things BETTER? You will troll through the terminal with 4 hot flight attendants on each arm and get R-E-S-P-E-C-T?

Ain't gonna happen, and believe me, you don't want it to. It will NOT end up like that.

We are already regulated. By the NTSB, FAA, DOT, yada yada yada,
What we need is the feds to set a rate for ticket prices so airlines don't have to take the money from labor to make a profit.
Then airlines would have to compete with quality of service rather than price. The consumer would win. Employees would win. There may be less people flying because the price is going to go up, so that should take care of the future pilot shortage. Again Win Win for All. Regulation is the key.

 

[buscap]

We are already regulated. By the NTSB, FAA, DOT, yada yada yada,
What we need is the feds to set a rate for ticket prices so airlines don't have to take the money from labor to make a profit.
Then airlines would have to compete with quality of service rather than price. The consumer would win. Employees would win. There may be less people flying because the price is going to go up, so that should take care of the future pilot shortage. Again Win Win for All. Regulation is the key.

Fascism!!!!!!

Or maybe just communism!!

Nope....definitely fascism