New Bid for USAIR EAST Pilots?

[Guppiedriver]

Fly-n-hi,

I agree that USAPA should be reaching out to the West in this way, and frankly I didn't know they had not done this yet. I'm going to call my reps and ask what is being done and make the suggestion that they get on it.

As for DOH, I'm sure they are going to stick to that effort. But what if enough conditions and restrictions are put in place so that none of your career expectations are harmed? Why is this not OK? Were you guys just about to buy A330's and start PHL-CDG? It seems like all I hear from any of you is that your were all going to upgrade in 5 years and so you should still upgrade in 5. Well, sorry, but you work for a bigger airline now, and bigger airlines tend to have longer upgrades.

There is a lot of irrationality on both sides of this coin. If you're right and Nic sticks, well then I guess I'll congratulate you guys on obtaining impenetrable furlough protection. I'll tell you, part of Dave O'Dell's career expectations were not that he would go from being the last guy on the list to having 1500 behind him almost overnight.

In any case, I'll pass along your ideas to USAPA. We certainly would be better off working together.

How about Nicolau with conditions and restrictions? Fence the west off of the widebodies indefinitely. No fences around domiciles. Pilots should be able to move east or west to shorten their commutes.

You're right, we didn't have any expectations of getting A330's. However, you need to admit that there was no hope for US Air without this merger. Spare me the BS about AWA filing for bankruptcy. We would be bankrupt by now, but the merger happened three years ago.

Dave O'Dell was employed at the time of the merger. You can't put unemployed pilots above those that are employed. End of discussion.

Oh, I know you expected to get recalled and become a senior widebody captain....Well, sorry, but but you work for a bigger airline now, and bigger airlines tend to have longer upgrades....and some don't have any recalls and no upgrades for decades.

If the merger didn't happen and US recalled all 1500 pilots, would the those recallees be in a more precarious situation than they are under the Nicolau Award?

You're right, we do need to work together, but it will never happen with your current C&BL's.

 

[m80drvr]

Correct me if I am wrong but weren't the 1500 Pilots behind Dave Odell UNEMPLOYED at the time of the merger? They actually did not work for USAirways at the time of the merger.

You say USAir brought things to the merger. I agree, they did. I don't give a flying fart if I ever fly a 330. But you and the 1500 junior furloughed pilots brought NOTHING. Dave Odell did. He brought a JOB. For some reason that escapes the east pilots. But fortunately it didn't escape Mr Nicleau.

CEL, guys, Please don't argue that you brought a job to the party. You didn't. I was on the CEL list at one time. It was made CRYSTAL CLEAR to me that I would not be a USAirways Mainline employee. Just as a WO pilot is not a mainline employee. No matter how much you deny the fact and stomp your feet you guys know the truth. Again, So did Mr. Nicleau.

Be Careful, Hopefully you can convince your reps to work with the west guys. Honestly with both parties separated I see USAirways going away even faster. Especially with you guys in "negotiating Mode" ( great time for Bradford to advocate wasting fuel. Damn that guy is obtuse).

The west will work with you if. You honor your agreements, stop the lawsuites, and the threats. Simple as that. Unfortunately your reps are rearranging the deck chairs on this Titanic and claiming that NIC does not apply to them.

PS. Filing lawsuites then damanding the west pay dues to fund the lawsuites is no way to form unity. Unless you guys reign in Sheeham and Bradford there will be no unity and a 55 year old USAir fo will find out just how hard it is to find a six figure job flying planes in the US.

Hopefully this all works out but I doubt the east will give up DOH. And DOH with fences will not not fly on the west.

 

[MCDU]

No, many were employed. J4J and Mid Atlantic. MDA was USAir and these pilots were employed and paid by USair. MDA went all the way down the list.

DOH with fences. This will ensure AWA pilots keep what is theirs. Do you think United and American would sell out 1/3 of their pilots list.
Just look at the WEST furloughs now. If we merge, they should be stapled behind everyone just because they got shafted. No, there DOH is what counts and the sooner you get that concept, the better.

Marty

 

[Lampshade]

For now I'll pay my dues but I won't become a member.

I won't do either.

 

[get2flyin]

I agree that USAPA should be reaching out to the West in this way, and frankly I didn't know they had not done this yet. I'm going to call my reps and ask what is being done and make the suggestion that they get on it.

As for DOH, I'm sure they are going to stick to that effort. But what if enough conditions and restrictions are put in place so that none of your career expectations are harmed? Why is this not OK? Were you guys just about to buy A330's and start PHL-CDG? It seems like all I hear from any of you is that your were all going to upgrade in 5 years and so you should still upgrade in 5. Well, sorry, but you work for a bigger airline now, and bigger airlines tend to have longer upgrades.

There is a lot of irrationality on both sides of this coin. If you're right and Nic sticks, well then I guess I'll congratulate you guys on obtaining impenetrable furlough protection. I'll tell you, part of Dave O'Dell's career expectations were not that he would go from being the last guy on the list to having 1500 behind him almost overnight.

In any case, I'll pass along your ideas to USAPA. We certainly would be better off working together.

Honestly, I'm not sure Dave O'Dell felt that great about having bunch of furloughed pilots and Jet-for-job jockeys junior to him. But hey, what-ever. As far as the 5 year upgrades at AWA, that never happened. Some Westies say maybe it would have, but the Easties said AWA would have gone bankrupt if we had let you liquidate and gone it alone. I personally don't like to deal in terms of what might have been. Besides, we're one big family now and that's just the way it is. We all swim or we all sink. Period

I think what pisses guys out West off about fences is that the East refused to discuss them prior to the Nic award. After all, that would have limited a guy on furlough from coming back off the street straight into a PHX captain seat with DOH, right? And that sure wouldn't have been fair....right?

I'm pretty sure there are more guys chomping at DOH bit so they can go West and "steal" captain seats then there are Westies wanting to go East and "steal" your coveted international flying...that Nic gave to you anyway *(top 517 seniority positions, in case you forgot). I still think you're taking a second bite of the pie, post Nic, and that still is *(in my opinion) a bunch of crap, but I'd be willing to hear you out. So what's your plan with the PHL based 330s? 10 year fences? No original AWA pilot would ever be allowed to fly them? Based on what USAPA has shown us so far, I would pretty much expect it includes allowing some off the street, new-hire 190 kid getting a shot at the 330 left seat before our captains do. But hey, have USAPA quit suing and start talking about realistic ideas. That might be a start at moving forward.

 

[get2flyin]

No, many were employed. J4J and Mid Atlantic. MDA was USAir and these pilots were employed and paid by USair. MDA went all the way down the list.

DOH with fences. This will ensure AWA pilots keep what is theirs. Do you think United and American would sell out 1/3 of their pilots list.
Just look at the WEST furloughs now. If we merge, they should be stapled behind everyone just because they got shafted. No, there DOH is what counts and the sooner you get that concept, the better.

Marty

Yawn.

 

[weasel_lips]

Dave O'Dell was employed at the time of the merger. You can't put unemployed pilots above those that are employed. End of discussion.

Those words just might come back to haunt you.

 

[get2flyin]

Those words just might come back to haunt you.

Thank you, USAPA!

 

[m80drvr]

No, many were employed. J4J and Mid Atlantic. MDA was USAir and these pilots were employed and paid by USair. MDA went all the way down the list.

DOH with fences. This will ensure AWA pilots keep what is theirs. Do you think United and American would sell out 1/3 of their pilots list.
Just look at the WEST furloughs now. If we merge, they should be stapled behind everyone just because they got shafted. No, there DOH is what counts and the sooner you get that concept, the better.

Marty

In fact, yes United did tell their furloughed pilots that if a merger was to occur that they would probably be left out. This was just after 911.

 

[m80drvr]

Those words just might come back to haunt you.

Not when my name on the arbitrated list is WAY above yours. Furlough out of seniority, time will tell. Though in the words of your Supreme Commander Bradford "seniority is like a crew meal". Ha I love that line.


When Doug finally gets UAL and ALPA is voted back in I think the west pilots will have the last laugh. The east never "got screwed" by ALPA. The east pilots screwed themselves with a disfunctional union and poor management. I would assume when ALPA gets back on property you may see the screwing of a lifetime. That is if you consider enforcing an agreed to federally arbitrated judgement "getting screwed"

 

[m80drvr]

No, many were employed. J4J and Mid Atlantic. MDA was USAir and these pilots were employed and paid by USair. MDA went all the way down the list.

DOH with fences. This will ensure AWA pilots keep what is theirs. Do you think United and American would sell out 1/3 of their pilots list.
Just look at the WEST furloughs now. If we merge, they should be stapled behind everyone just because they got shafted. No, there DOH is what counts and the sooner you get that concept, the better.

Marty

Marty you and many of the east pilots are a perfect example of group think.

So Marty, explain what should happen to a East furoughed pilot that did not go to MDA because he found a better job AND BECAUSE HE UNDERSTOOD THAT MDA WAS NOT USAIRWAYS. You obviously think that you should be senior to him on the recall list. In your world YOU have more time on property and seniority than he does. Are you senior to any recalled pilots that were ACTUALLY hired by Usair in say 1999? You have more time on property don't you? Are you currently fighting to be placed in front of any recalled pilots that have less "seniority" than you? You can't have it both ways, either you were at Usairways and are now senior to a few hundred 1999/2000 hires or you aren't. And if you aren't then you were not working for usairways whil flying your regional jet.

Which is it Marty?

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Well when Doug finally gets UAL and ALPA is voted back in I think the west pilots will have the last laugh. The east never "got screwed" by ALPA. The east pilots screwed themselves. But I would assume when ALPA gets back on property you may see the screwing of a lifetime. That is if you consider enforcing an agreed to federally arbitrated judgement "getting screwed"

Well, don't have a dog in Your fight, and don't mean to interrupt your family fight kids, but just thought I would throw in a few 'probabilities' If UAL is sold or mergered, many (most) believe the likely pairing is CAL/UAL. Even if UAL has greater financial problems than others (keeping in mind that 'everyone' is in Trouble), and CAL does Not take ALL of UAL, US Air may end up with some assets (parts, like the A-Buses, etc), but again, don't see a UAL/LCC deal anytime in the future, and most also see it that way.

Also, just a side note, minor correction, but the 'arbitrated judgement' that you had at US Air, was NOT a "federal arbitrated judgement" what makes you think so? It was a 'private arbitration' and the Federal Gov't had nothing to do with it. A 'Federal' arbitration would be one that was 'ordered, conducted by, and overseen' by the NMB. Makes a definite difference, and just wanted to make sure you understood.

For what its worth. Now, please continue with Your regular scheduled rant, children.

DA

 

[SOVT]

Whyhasn't USAPA come out and said something like "Westies, we know that you are not happy about the representation but we would like a chance to show you how we can be better than ALPA. We want a strong unified pilot group and we know that we are ALL in this together. We want every pilot at US Airways to participate and make this a stong airline. From here on out there is no East or West but one unified group."?

Why haven't the west pilots said something like... we know you east guys aren't happy with the award so why don't we develop a methodology by which the guys who spent sixteen or seventeen years on the property will have that time recognized for bidding and upgrading?

All I've heard on this forum is , to heck with you, enjoy being junior to Dave.

 

[m80drvr]

Why haven't the west pilots said something like... we know you east guys aren't happy with the award so why don't we develop a methodology by which the guys who spent sixteen or seventeen years on the property will have that time recognized for bidding and upgrading?

All I've heard on this forum is , to heck with you, enjoy being junior to Dave.

That was tried the east said DOH or nothing. I'm sure the west's initial list was not fair in the east's mind BUT low and behold it was better than what NIC awarded.

Why should the west rewrite the list. The west followed the rules and gained NOTHING but a relative seniority judgement. If 16 years gets you bottom reserve FO what makes you think that you should be captain on the next bid at the expense of another pilot group? Their was plenty of time for negotiations, fences....2 years ago. NEITHER side could reach an agreement. They both chose to go to arbitration KNOWING what the outcome could be. One side is following their agreements ans the other is making up rules as they go along.

STOV please tell my why the west should give in now? Honestly I would like to know. No flame either, I am wondering why you feel that way.

 

[m80drvr]

Well, don't have a dog in Your fight, and don't mean to interrupt your family fight kids, but just thought I would throw in a few 'probabilities' If UAL is sold or mergered, many (most) believe the likely pairing is CAL/UAL. Even if UAL has greater financial problems than others (keeping in mind that 'everyone' is in Trouble), and CAL does Not take ALL of UAL, US Air may end up with some assets (parts, like the A-Buses, etc), but again, don't see a UAL/LCC deal anytime in the future, and most also see it that way.

Also, just a side note, minor correction, but the 'arbitrated judgement' that you had at US Air, was NOT a "federal arbitrated judgement" what makes you think so? It was a 'private arbitration' and the Federal Gov't had nothing to do with it. A 'Federal' arbitration would be one that was 'ordered, conducted by, and overseen' by the NMB. Makes a definite difference, and just wanted to make sure you understood.

For what its worth. Now, please continue with Your regular scheduled rant, children.

DA

Federal or not why would it make a difference?

Are you suggesting that the judgemant can be changed of one side does not like the outcome?

Can a baseball player just change his name if he does not like the arbitration award with the owner?

Can one party change their name ane refuse to follow a divorce arbitration?

EDIT


You are right sir it was a private arbitration ruled on by a federal arbitrator. Thanks for correcting me.

Why do you believe that makes a difference? Just wondering?.....No flame intended.

J