New Bid for USAIR EAST Pilots?

[imacdog]

Really, Dan? And you got this info from...? Did the Wilson Center conduct an ALPA poll (your dues $$ at work.)??

The number of pilots on this board calling you guys idiots should be your first clue.

How well are your dues monies working for you guys - that failed lawsuit wasn't free was it?

 

[get2flyin]

1) FlightMisInfo.com is not the real world. Really, none of this stuff you guys post has any bearing on anything.

And yet, you continue to post. Why?

2) Thousands of dissatisfied ALPA members have congratulated us and asked us how to rid themselves of the Beast.

And thousands of disgusted ALPA members have vowed to support us by not allowing you to ride on their jumpseats. Where were you going with this?

3) USAPA representation is available to all of us. Non-membership is a choice you guys are making, and it's a pretty stupid one.

No, USAPA dues collection is available to all of us. Very little in your by-laws serves the West pilots. And the DOH provision, what does that demonstrate? If it truly is the Holy Grail of merger policy, why isn't retroactive to those who were previously "brought into the USAir fold" and then stapled?

4) USAPA's negotiation of the enhanced leave provisions in the East contract being offered to the West is something, it's a freekin' start, and it was done quickly on behalf of a group who doesn't pay dues, and who fights, kicks, and screams out loud on the Internet on a daily basis as well as mailing feces and all that other professional, responsible stuff. It's an indication that USAPA is here to do the right thing. But of course it's viewed here as nothing.

Simmer down now, champ. Your crack team of experts was able to implement a system of allowing senior pilots to leave the company for a while. Wow, I'm sure the company fought that kicking and screaming. While I agree, it is something, if that's the best the West is going to get, don't expect a ticker-tape parade when you show up in Phoenix.

And, yes, to whoever asked, the phone message does address the case dismissal. As usual, it's not as cut and dried as you all make it seem here, but whatever. I have no illusion that USAPA is perfect, and I personally wish they'd focus on getting this group together. I really do believe that we could do better as a group independent of ALPA National, but, of course, we may never see this potential realized. Too bad.

Did you read the dismissal? The judge didn't just dismiss it. He basically said it was a joke. If that's not what you got out of it, read it again.

Really, Dan? And you got this info from...? Did the Wilson Center conduct an ALPA poll (your dues $$ at work.)??

And you fault ALPA for how they spent money? Meanwhile, USAPA is chasing windmills by frivolously suing the very pilots it supposedly represents with your money. And yet, that doesn't bother you. Why is that? I think it's because you bought into the "entitlement" sales job lock, stock, and barrel. The West didn't win when this got tossed out, but your awesome lawyers win regardless of the outcome. How's that making you feel?

You can spare us the "it was all about Nicolau" story, because it wasn't. ALPA has been identified as a self-serving, bloated, ineffective organization on this property for a loooong time, and their days were numbered Nic or no Nic.

And you can spare the rest of us the "it wasn't the Nicolau" story, because it was. In its short history, USAPA has identified itself as a self-serving, ineffective organization. Had you attempted to oust ALPA after the merger was complete, you might have had the support of many of the West pilots. ALPA didn't blow it, your piss-poor reps did. But everybody was willing to make ALPA the scapegoat and you threw them out to try and take another bite at the pie. I'm embarrassed to be associated with the majority of you. Integrity matters.

 

[Lampshade]

Since you seem to know, why don't you post it here so we can all examine the great accomplishments of these powerful ALPA MECs?

While USAPA remains pre-occupied with fighting "fuel abuse training", gear pin procedures, and frivolous lawsuits, other pilot unions have been busy securing the jobs of their members. Consider recent activity of the following pilot groups:

· June 20, 2008 - Continental MEC negotiates a "furlough mitigation" LOA.

· June 26 - American Eagle MEC ratifies an agreement with American Eagle management to preserve pilot jobs and reduce furloughs.

· July 9, 2008 - Furloughs to be a last resort after employing early-out programs, voluntary leaves, work rule modifications, and attrition at Northwest Airlines.

· July 9, 2008 - United MEC to consider a "furlough mitigation" TA.

Following is a table that compares "furlough mitigation" agreements from 5 airlines, including US Airways:





VLOA= CAL, NWA, EGL, UAL, US (1 out of 4 ain't bad)

WORK RULE MODs= CAL, NWA, EGL, UAL

"EARLY OUT" RETIREMENT =CAL, NWA

REDUCTION OF OUTSOURCING = EGL


Also, there is still no word if USAPA plans to follow the lead of both the AAA and AWA MEC's in working out a program to help pay for the continuation of medical benefits for pilots who are furloughed. Both MECs invoked this program in 2001 to help furloughed pilots pay for their COBRA health care premiums providing they fell under strict eligibility guidelines. Furloughed pilots, many on probationary pay, would have a difficult time providing their families with necessary but expensive healthcare without assistance.

 

[MCDU]

The number of pilots on this board calling you guys idiots should be your first clue.

You ever hear of the the silent majority?

Check out the latest crew session on 7/8 in PHX with Parker and Hogg.
Very sad. With all the cuts and furloughs we have endured in the EAST, nothing comes close to the unprofessinal behavior displayed by a bunch of sad individuals at AWA. Especially Susie. She needs help. She is about to snap.

Marty

 

[becket]

The number of pilots on this board calling you guys idiots should be your first clue.

You ever hear of the the silent majority?

Check out the latest crew session on 7/8 in PHX with Parker and Hogg.
Very sad. With all the cuts and furloughs we have endured in the EAST, nothing comes close to the unprofessinal behavior displayed by a bunch of sad individuals at AWA. Especially Susie. She needs help. She is about to snap.

Marty

"nothing comes close to the unprofessional behavior"?!!

That's hysterical! USAPA is a pus filled sore on the rear end of this profession. Too many ethical, moral and legal violations to count from that fake "union"

The silent majority...you mean the super secret, ultra quiet...almost as if they don't exist in reality "silent" majority?

 

[Guppiedriver]

3) USAPA representation is available to all of us. Non-membership is a choice you guys are making, and it's a pretty stupid one.

Membership involves agreeing to DOH. Hardly stupid if you're a westie.

Drop DOH from your C&BL's and the lawsuits against the west and you'll see a spike in membership.

 

[imacdog]

In this case, the "silent majority" is just sitting back and letting the vocal majority speak for them.

 

[Dan Roman]

Becareful, IMAC and Get 2 schooled you, but let me add an observasion about yor anti ALPA rhetoric. The reason so many ALPA pilots are disgusted with USAPA is you guys failed to realize that ALPA is about everyone not just YOU. AWA/USAir has to be the most difficult merger imaginable. Huge differences in DOH that had to be rectified. AWA initiated a deal that in all likelyhood did save USAir. But USAir brought plenty to the table also. Again a more difficult list to merge would be hard to find. ALPA wisely didn't take sides, they tried to represent EVERYBODY and binding arbitration probally was the only realistic way to go. You guys were upset because ALPA didn't favor YOU. ALPA is about strength in numbers, it may not always do what YOU want, but it's the best vehicle out there for preserving our profession and you guys have decided you care more about yourselves than the profession as a whole. Without the merger you probably would have been on the street, you guys have screwed things up so bad for your airline you may not survive the very dificult times ahead, had you worked together, you would have had a much better shot at surviving.

 

[olympus593]

Really, Dan? And you got this info from...? Did the Wilson Center conduct an ALPA poll (your dues $$ at work.)??

Do these same loyal ALPA members think the AA guys are idiots for leaving in 1964? Are the SWA and UPS pilots idiots, too?

You can spare us the "it was all about Nicolau" story, because it wasn't. ALPA has been identified as a self-serving, bloated, ineffective organization on this property for a loooong time, and their days were numbered Nic or no Nic.

I think you and usapa are a bunch of idiots.

 

[BeCareful!]

I love all this mythical denied JS stuff. No one I know of who commutes has had any denied JS on other carriers. I know you guys in the west have denied JS....classy move. But this alleged widespread JS denial is a FI.com myth. You have perhaps fooled some of the commuter newbies here, like the CRJ captian who just posted. Whatever.

Hey Lampshade: that 2001 ALPA COBRA payment for furloughed pilots was a freekin' train wreck! It cost me more than $800 dollars for an office visit for my daughter, because it was reported as imputed income. There was a better way to do it, but ALPA f*&^%$ it up and I tried to undo it but to no avail.

Thanks for reminding me; I will speak to USAPA about avoiding the fu&^ed up way ALPA handled that.

BC

 

[WickedPissa]

And the companies that they gave it away to(Air Wisconsin,Chataqua in all it's various forms and the wholly-owned folks) do the job a hell of a lot better than the company they replaced. Even Mesa is an improvement over anything mainline offers.

PHXFLYR

You are mainline.

 

[WickedPissa]

he's talking about "the present" and not about the "the past" ... strange concept, time to get "a clue".

how do you know what he thinks? was that part of your pillow talk?

 

[Lampshade]

Hey Lampshade: that 2001 ALPA COBRA payment for furloughed pilots was a freekin' train wreck! It cost me more than $800 dollars for an office visit for my daughter, because it was reported as imputed income. There was a better way to do it, but ALPA f*&^%$ it up and I tried to undo it but to no avail.

Thanks for reminding me; I will speak to USAPA about avoiding the fu&^ed up way ALPA handled that.

BC

It was handled fine by AWA, but the yEasties have issues with everything. Whats so hard about paying cobra payments for furloughed pilots for a few months? Ask uSUCKA that.

 

[PHXFLYR]

You are mainline.

Don't remind me.

PHXFLYR

 

[eaglesview]

I love all this mythical denied JS stuff. No one I know of who commutes has had any denied JS on other carriers. I know you guys in the west have denied JS....classy move. But this alleged widespread JS denial is a FI.com myth. You have perhaps fooled some of the commuter newbies here, like the CRJ captian who just posted. Whatever.

That's a true statement. I don't know of anyone at UAL that would deny a jumpseat. For the record congrats on dumping ALPA.

 

[dispatchguy]

It's an indication that USAPA is here to do the right thing.

I've been under the impression that adhering to the agreed-to binding arbitration called Nicolau was the right thing, and we see how well that has gone. While Nic might've been flawed, it was still agreed to that it would be adhered to.

I thought one of the requirements to get an ATP was to be of "good moral character". Good moral character must not include keeping your agreements; I'll have to keep that in mind...

Ex-Cactus DXR.

 

[Thebadcat1313]

A couple points regarding the upcoming furloughs:

1) The TA does say that there are three seperate lists, the east, west and newhire (the "third" list, with 153 pilots including the CEL folks) Although the TA does not specifically say that the third list has to be furloughed first, it DOES say that the third list is junior to both other lists. Both east and west contracts require furloughs to happen in reverse seniority order. Since nobody disputes that the third list is junior to everyone else, it can be assumed that they would need to be furloughed before anyone else on the east or west list is put on the street. A good union would be aggressively pursuing this point, and USAPA could gain some respect out west by pursuing this issue. If the company is allowed to get away with anything else, they have succeeded in whipsawing our group. I don't want to see ANYONE hit the street, but if there are going to be furloughs, it needs to go in this order.

2) USAPA should be pursuing furlough mitigation on the west through pay caps and early outs in addition to the voluntary leaves (which I give them credit for, BTW).

 

[av8tor76]

it's so frikin funny how many bumper stickers i see daily on the westie flight bags saying "UScaba is not our union", then you want them to do something about west furloughs...are there 94 westies who are gonna come east to fly the 190?? I think not.

 

[m80drvr]

it's so frikin funny how many bumper stickers i see daily on the westie flight bags saying "UScaba is not our union", then you want them to do something about west furloughs...are there 94 westies who are gonna come east to fly the 190?? I think not.

With thousands of pilots soon to be on the street and the only jobs require a cummute to Vietnan , I would assume the affected pilots would like the opton. Not to mention that the pilots will be building time toward longevity and seniority. But alas seniority is just like a crew meal.

 

[A-V-8]

4)It's an indication that USAPA is here to do the right thing. But of course it's viewed here as nothing.

If you were here to do the right thing then your would accept the seniority list the way the arbitrator awarded it. Instead you made an organization to steal seniority from America West Pilots. Are you proud to be part of an organization whose #1 priority is theft?

 

[BeCareful!]

I love all this mythical denied JS stuff. No one I know of who commutes has had any denied JS on other carriers. I know you guys in the west have denied JS....classy move. But this alleged widespread JS denial is a FI.com myth. You have perhaps fooled some of the commuter newbies here, like the CRJ captian who just posted. Whatever.



That's a true statement. I don't know of anyone at UAL that would deny a jumpseat. For the record congrats on dumping ALPA.

Thanks eaglesview. Not that the pseudo reality here on FI.com really matters, but for the 10 minutes a week I spend here it's nice for it to have some factual basis, not the West's vivid dreams of a system-wide jumpseat war against east pilots and a uniform and undying support for ALPA.

 

[A-V-8]

"2) Thousands of dissatisfied ALPA members have congratulated us and asked us how to rid themselves of the Beast."

And how many have voted so far? Do you think anyone is saying that to the AWA guys? O hey in related news Net Jets went off on their own but sorry no ALPA guys yet. I am expecting a vote any time now!

I am holding my breath.

OK I am turning red now.

Ding Ding Ding and the winner of the retard comment of the thread is Dan Roman! I would like to thank all of the Kool-Aid drinkers at USAPA for their support.

Just try to say anything to protect your own ego from the shame of what you are doing no mater how misleading or asinine it may be.

 

[imacdog]

Leave NetJets out of this. NetJets just passed a contract that benefits the lives of all of its members. A far cry from what the USAPA losers are trying to accomplish.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

it's so frikin funny how many bumper stickers i see daily on the westie flight bags saying "UScaba is not our union", then you want them to do something about west furloughs...are there 94 westies who are gonna come east to fly the 190?? I think not.

If you all would drop the DOH issue I think most AWA pilots would support USAPA...or at least they wouldn't oppose it so much.

As long as you push DOH (which isn't going to happen, BTW) you alienate the west pilot group and basically force them to oppose you.

What are we supposed to do? If we suport USAPA they will try to use our money against us. If we don't support USAPA we have no say in anything and cannot participate...although the west is outnumbered 2 to 1 so I guess it wouldn't matter if supported them or not.

USAPA is the East's union. Is is not the West's. USAPA has made that clear in writing. The only literature I have recieved from USAPA basically says "East guys, this is what we are doing to help you... West guys, start paying dues or we will have you terminated..." Look at your quote. USAPA is not enforcing the TA, West guys are going to get furloughed that shouldn't, and you East guys are suprised that West doesn't like USAPA?

Why hasn't USAPA come out and said something like "Westies, we know that you are not happy about the representation but we would like a chance to show you how we can be better than ALPA. We want a strong unified pilot group and we know that we are ALL in this together. We want every pilot at US Airways to participate and make this a stong airline. From here on out there is no East or West but one unified group."?

You want us to participate? Quit wasting time and money with the hopeless DOH and start making us feel like USAPA exists to serve us, too...not just the East. Now you know what you've gotta do. Are you gonna do it?

For now I'll pay my dues but I won't become a member. At least I wont have to pay for the assesments when USAPA declares bankruptcy.



Oh, BTW, I would absolutely fly the 190 if it meant keeping a paycheck. What kind of idiot wouldn't?

 

[m80drvr]

If you all would drop the DOH issue I think most AWA pilots would support USAPA...or at least they wouldn't oppose it so much.

As long as you push DOH (which isn't going to happen, BTW) you alienate the west pilot group and basically force them to oppose you.

What are we supposed to do? If we suport USAPA they will try to use our money against us. If we don't support USAPA we have no say in anything and cannot participate...although the west is outnumbered 2 to 1 so I guess it wouldn't matter if supported them or not.

USAPA is the East's union. Is is not the West's. USAPA has made that clear in writing. The only literature I have recieved from USAPA basically says "East guys, this is what we are doing to help you... West guys, start paying dues or we will have you terminated..." Look at your quote. USAPA is not enforcing the TA, West guys are going to get furloughed that shouldn't, and you East guys are suprised that West doesn't like USAPA?

Why hasn't USAPA come out and said something like "Westies, we know that you are not happy about the representation but we would like a chance to show you how we can be better than ALPA. We want a strong unified pilot group and we know that we are ALL in this together. We want every pilot at US Airways to participate and make this a stong airline. From here on out there is no East or West but one unified group."?

You want us to participate? Quit wasting time and money with the hopeless DOH and start making us feel like USAPA exists to serve us, too...not just the East. Now you know what you've gotta do. Are you gonna do it?

For now I'll pay my dues but I won't become a member. At least I wont have to pay for the assesments when USAPA declares bankruptcy.



Oh, BTW, I would absolutely fly the 190 if it meant keeping a paycheck. What kind of idiot wouldn't?

Best post I've read in a long time

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Fly-n-hi I agree with you.

 

[Dan Roman]

And how many have voted so far? Do you think anyone is saying that to the AWA guys? O hey in related news Net Jets went off on their own but sorry no ALPA guys yet. I am expecting a vote any time now!

I am holding my breath.

OK I am turning red now.

Ding Ding Ding and the winner of the retard comment of the thread is Dan Roman! I would like to thank all of the Kool-Aid drinkers at USAPA for their support.

Just try to say anything to protect your own ego from the shame of what you are doing no mater how misleading or asinine it may be.

Don't turn red dude, that was a quote from Be careful, I went on to dispute it. I guess it looks like I was saying that because when I edited it it took out the shaded part that identifies who I was quoting. Read the rest of what I wrote, it should lower you blood pressure.

 

[BeCareful!]

"Westies, we know that you are not happy about the representation but we would like a chance to show you how we can be better than ALPA. We want a strong unified pilot group and we know that we are ALL in this together. We want every pilot at US Airways to participate and make this a stung airline. From here on out there is no East or West but one unified group."?


Fly-n-hi,

I agree that USAPA should be reaching out to the West in this way, and frankly I didn't know they had not done this yet. I'm going to call my reps and ask what is being done and make the suggestion that they get on it.

As for DOH, I'm sure they are going to stick to that effort. But what if enough conditions and restrictions are put in place so that none of your career expectations are harmed? Why is this not OK? Were you guys just about to buy A330's and start PHL-CDG? It seems like all I hear from any of you is that your were all going to upgrade in 5 years and so you should still upgrade in 5. Well, sorry, but you work for a bigger airline now, and bigger airlines tend to have longer upgrades.

There is a lot of irrationality on both sides of this coin. If you're right and Nic sticks, well then I guess I'll congratulate you guys on obtaining impenetrable furlough protection. I'll tell you, part of Dave O'Dell's career expectations were not that he would go from being the last guy on the list to having 1500 behind him almost overnight.

In any case, I'll pass along your ideas to USAPA. We certainly would be better off working together.

 

[Dan Roman]

I think this is what it should look like

2) Thousands of dissatisfied ALPA members have congratulated us and asked us how to rid themselves of the Beast.

.

Just to keep in perspective, there are a lot more ALPA members that feel you guys are idiots. I wouldn't gloat to much just because you are able to find a "dissatisfied airline pilot" there are a ton of them in todays economy and some will blame anything or anyone they can find for the dismal situation the industry is in.

 

[A-V-8]

Don't turn red dude, that was a quote from Be careful, I went on to dispute it. I guess it looks like I was saying that because when I edited it it took out the shaded part that identifies who I was quoting. Read the rest of what I wrote, it should lower you blood pressure.

O.K. sorry I misdirected some reality. Who ever originally posted the comment that was under your name wins it.

And for the Net Jets comment my point was that ALPA carriers have had time to vote ALPA out and they haven't even tried. The USAPA cheerleaders keep saying that everyone in ALPA will soon follow. My point was that it was really dumb to say this. I mean who? Some anonymous carrier? Apparently there are a lot of them. But I haven’t seen even one vote let alone "Tons" of carriers just voting out APLA and trying to steal seniority from AWA. Nothing but respect for Net Jets from here. If I had someone there that I knew my stuff would be on file. I think that Net Jets is one of the premier places in the industry to work.