New ASA/XJT JCBA rumor....

[bigshooter107]

This..........^^^^^^^^.........

 

[mckpickle]

Then please exsplain .. Globalization .. I thought it looked at the entire solution and awarded pairings based on the overall solution, VS looking at the individual bidder... ? Not being a smart ass just asking for Info.

Globalization is as broad of a concept as precipitation. There are many different types. The smartpref system calculates, based on everyones current bid, where it needs to start restricting bidders. In our testing it fell around the bottom 40% of bidders. The system globalizes based on the SPLAT (average time per line) and the stacking of trips. It doesn't need to tell the top bidder....or even the top 50 bidders that they can't have a trip. Globalization got a bad wrap because of the work rules used on systems like CAL's that force it to solve to zero open time and place every single trip with a very narrow award credit range. Poor work rules in globalized systems are no better or worse than bad word rules in line bidding. The problem with the way flightline is configured is that since it inherently cannot look forward to see if it produces a viable solution so the setting must be set to force everyone into a narrow range, thus socializing. The two systems, flightline and navtech are both able to produce viable solutions for many companies that use them. However they do so by using very narrow credit windows, 6 hours in some cases and liberal use of unstacking. Hope that helps.

 

[bigshooter107]

Globalization is as broad of a concept as precipitation. There are many different types. The smartpref system calculates, based on everyones current bid, where it needs to start restricting bidders. In our testing it fell around the bottom 40% of bidders. The system globalizes based on the SPLAT (average time per line) and the stacking of trips. It doesn't need to tell the top bidder....or even the top 50 bidders that they can't have a trip. Globalization got a bad wrap because of the work rules used on systems like CAL's that force it to solve to zero open time and place every single trip with a very narrow award credit range. Poor work rules in globalized systems are no better or worse than bad word rules in line bidding. The problem with the way flightline is configured is that since it inherently cannot look forward to see if it produces a viable solution so the setting must be set to force everyone into a narrow range, thus socializing. The two systems, flightline and navtech are both able to produce viable solutions for many companies that use them. However they do so by using very narrow credit windows, 6 hours in some cases and liberal use of unstacking. Hope that helps.

Don't think ASA has had to unstack very much, r u saying that 4 out of 6 pilots will be " globalized" IE having their sked changed based on an overall solution VS individual choices?

 

[bigshooter107]

I just have to ask about " live bidding" again not being a smart ass. But in my experiance with vacation, I usually go to the ALPA guys and make sure I didn't screw up, vac low etc. In my experiance while the bid is open it is " live" to our guys in the PBS work group. I can look at my bid and see where I wind up. They run a bid, tell me what I got based on who has bid, super. But that completly changes the minute someone senior to me submits their bid. Just seems like a lost leader, unless u are able to stay at the computer the last several hours before the bid closes and manipulate it. If that's the case we probably need language in the contract that requires a certain amount of automatic bid runs per hour to get up to date info...not an exspert though.

 

[sweptback]

I just have to ask about " live bidding" again not being a smart ass. But in my experiance with vacation, I usually go to the ALPA guys and make sure I didn't screw up, vac low etc. In my experiance while the bid is open it is " live" to our guys in the PBS work group. I can look at my bid and see where I wind up. They run a bid, tell me what I got based on who has bid, super. But that completly changes the minute someone senior to me submits their bid. Just seems like a lost leader, unless u are able to stay at the computer the last several hours before the bid closes and manipulate it. If that's the case we probably need language in the contract that requires a certain amount of automatic bid runs per hour to get up to date info...not an exspert though.

The problem is, it's an arms race.

Let's say in one scenario, you have the guy that is trying to use the live bidding to his advantage. He keeps refreshing the screen to find out what he would get while he is changing his bid to account for the projected results. Unfortunately, it never ends.

Also, you know we will have some tech savvy computer guy that submits a totally bogus bid but writes a script that replaces his bid with his actual one a minute prior to bid close, just so he can screw with people.

Or, you have the senior pilot who had a typical ATL 26-hour 4-day trip and didn't have time to bid on his lengthy 9 hour overnights. So, he sits down at his computer at 4:30pm and knocks out a quicky bid. You could say that the default bid being on file would take care of that, but what if his default bid was for Mon-Th and he decides to bid Tu-Fri this month?

At least with Flightline's "live bidding" I can see what pairings match my preferences and let my seniority play out during the awarding process. You can't really say that about Smartpref.

 

[sweptback]

Globalization is as broad of a concept as precipitation. There are many different types. The smartpref system calculates, based on everyones current bid, where it needs to start restricting bidders. In our testing it fell around the bottom 40% of bidders.

Great, so every month, if you're in the bottom 40% of bidders you're screwed.

With unstacking, which has only been done in a few months since we've been live, it may only go to 30% in a non-holiday month. In fact, I don't think we've unstacked yet in a non-holiday month. I could be wrong since I'm not a PBS guru.

Even with unstacking, your seniority still has a say on what trips you are awarded. Once you hit the splat line, who knows what's happening to your schedule, nor can you gain intel on how to avoid it next month.

 

[sweptback]

It seems to me his biggest complaint was that the system forces everyone into the same minimum credit window. So if they set the bottom of the window at 85 or above everyone is forced to fly that much. This forces everyone to pick pairings simply to get up to the window. This was the biggest problem we found with the current arraignment and the requirement to "socialize". Software that "globalizes" does not need to do this.

Seems to me the answer is to negotiate a fixed bottom of the window. Or, allow a certain percentage of senior pilots bid to 75 hours. Or, to come up with a solution that allows the window to "flex" based on the needs of the company, but maintains an overall yearly average that favors the pilots. I'm sure smart people can come up with many more solutions to this problem than I have come up with in 30 seconds.

Or you could just throw out the entire system and start from scratch. That seems like a better idea.

 

[mckpickle]

If you had read our report you'd know that we set that as a condition of accepting your system. Setting the bottom of the window at MMG. This however would have a dramatic effect on required staffing. However we certainly did give the conditions to which it would work for us.
As for your comments on "if your in the bottom 40% your screwed", well thats just false. Your choices may be more limited than non restricted bidders. However with a live environment you are able to see that right away. For example, if you are in the restricted group you may be required to fly 87 hours credit when the trips you wanted only added up to 86 hours. The choice is yours to either take those trips or to find other trips to bring you to the required credit range. But with the live interface in the GUI, you see that right away and are able to bid appropriately.
The difference is that in your current system you are guessing at what you'll be awarded. You have no idea what people above you have bid and when you don't bid properly you are given different trip farther down the list. This even occurs when whomever is running the software uses different sort bias. The best example is when you say 4 day trips on mon or tues. The order of those trips is completely up to whomever runs the software. The ONLY way to deal with that is very very specific bidding. When not enough is bid you end up with all remaining trips or trips very far down on your list. VS seeing what is available right away.
And you're right about unstack for asa. They are able to mostly cover the flying by use of the high credit window. Because inherent in the software is the likelyhood of getting bumped to reserve, bidders commonly allow for any option that will construct a legal line. Thus you end up the stacks being used to construct the lines as a last resort before unstacking is needed. In two other companies that use the software we've found they unstack most months. Running the system in a stress test where everyone ask for the same day off is a valuable testing tool which we have been able to do in both prefbid and smartpref.

 

[OCP]

If you had read our report you'd know that we set that as a condition of accepting your system. Setting the bottom of the window at MMG. This however would have a dramatic effect on required staffing. However we certainly did give the conditions to which it would work for us.
As for your comments on "if your in the bottom 40% your screwed", well thats just false. Your choices may be more limited than non restricted bidders. However with a live environment you are able to see that right away. For example, if you are in the restricted group you may be required to fly 87 hours credit when the trips you wanted only added up to 86 hours. The choice is yours to either take those trips or to find other trips to bring you to the required credit range. But with the live interface in the GUI, you see that right away and are able to bid appropriately.
The difference is that in your current system you are guessing at what you'll be awarded. You have no idea what people above you have bid and when you don't bid properly you are given different trip farther down the list. This even occurs when whomever is running the software uses different sort bias. The best example is when you say 4 day trips on mon or tues. The order of those trips is completely up to whomever runs the software. The ONLY way to deal with that is very very specific bidding. When not enough is bid you end up with all remaining trips or trips very far down on your list. VS seeing what is available right away.
And you're right about unstack for asa. They are able to mostly cover the flying by use of the high credit window. Because inherent in the software is the likelyhood of getting bumped to reserve, bidders commonly allow for any option that will construct a legal line. Thus you end up the stacks being used to construct the lines as a last resort before unstacking is needed. In two other companies that use the software we've found they unstack most months. Running the system in a stress test where everyone ask for the same day off is a valuable testing tool which we have been able to do in both prefbid and smartpref.

I keep reading the things you post, and still it seems to me that you think the ASA system works fine, but needs some rules.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but with smartpref bottom 40% would need to keep bidding for 4 days (or whatever) constantly checking to see if they did it right up until the last second that the bid closes to see if they might get about what they hope for?

 

[bigshooter107]

If you had read our report you'd know that we set that as a condition of accepting your system. Setting the bottom of the window at MMG. This however would have a dramatic effect on required staffing. However we certainly did give the conditions to which it would work for us.
As for your comments on "if your in the bottom 40% your screwed", well thats just false. Your choices may be more limited than non restricted bidders. However with a live environment you are able to see that right away. For example, if you are in the restricted group you may be required to fly 87 hours credit when the trips you wanted only added up to 86 hours. The choice is yours to either take those trips or to find other trips to bring you to the required credit range. But with the live interface in the GUI, you see that right away and are able to bid appropriately.
The difference is that in your current system you are guessing at what you'll be awarded. You have no idea what people above you have bid and when you don't bid properly you are given different trip farther down the list. This even occurs when whomever is running the software uses different sort bias. The best example is when you say 4 day trips on mon or tues. The order of those trips is completely up to whomever runs the software. The ONLY way to deal with that is very very specific bidding. When not enough is bid you end up with all remaining trips or trips very far down on your list. VS seeing what is available right away.
And you're right about unstack for asa. They are able to mostly cover the flying by use of the high credit window. Because inherent in the software is the likelyhood of getting bumped to reserve, bidders commonly allow for any option that will construct a legal line. Thus you end up the stacks being used to construct the lines as a last resort before unstacking is needed. In two other companies that use the software we've found they unstack most months. Running the system in a stress test where everyone ask for the same day off is a valuable testing tool which we have been able to do in both prefbid and smartpref.

Being a sked chairman please post the report or PM me please, thank u MCpickle.

 

[bigshooter107]

What is the average bid run solution with 2000 pilots, to update and be" live"... ?

 

[bigshooter107]

Sincere question... What are the 3 disadvantages and advantages of each system in your opinion?

 

[Nevets]

What is the average bid run solution with 2000 pilots, to update and be" live"... ?

Do you mean, how long does it take before the solution is complete and your line is posted? Probably 15 minutes tops, would be my guess. By the way, I don't know if this makes a difference or not but it's a separate bid solution for each domicile and seat. So it's not really trying to solve 2000 bids at once. Our biggest base has about 315 hard lines right now and has about 415 pilots per seat bidding for hard lines, relief lines, and reserve lines. (Even years back when we had the most block hours to fly, the most I ever saw in our biggest base was about 525 hard lines and 650 pilots per seat.) So it's really solving 425 FO lines, 425 CA lines (for IAH), and then another amount of FO and CA lines for all the other bases. Keeping in mind that CAs bid before FOs.

 

[enuffalready]

Do you mean, how long does it take before the solution is complete and your line is posted? Probably 15 minutes tops, would be my guess. By the way, I don't know if this makes a difference or not but it's a separate bid solution for each domicile and seat. So it's not really trying to solve 2000 bids at once. Our biggest base has about 315 hard lines right now and has about 415 pilots per seat bidding for hard lines, relief lines, and reserve lines. (Even years back when we had the most block hours to fly, the most I ever saw in our biggest base was about 525 hard lines and 650 pilots per seat.) So it's really solving 425 FO lines, 425 CA lines (for IAH), and then another amount of FO and CA lines for all the other bases. Keeping in mind that CAs bid before FOs.

we had line bidding and it was instant.... with PBS it takes forever to run because the company runs it multiple times and selects the one that is most efficient... so this real time stuff is just non sense... it wont work and is only as good as the people that bid in front of you...its a worthless bell and whistle.

however if this is something the XJT guys want... then fine... tweak what we have and add this real time bid.... but dont scrap all the great stuff we have with our current pbs

 

[Nevets]

we had line bidding and it was instant.... with PBS it takes forever to run because the company runs it multiple times and selects the one that is most efficient... so this real time stuff is just non sense... it wont work and is only as good as the people that bid in front of you...its a worthless bell and whistle

I don't think you understand the way smartpref works. There is no need to run it multiple times in smartpref to get the most efficient solutions. The parameters are all set ahead of time and there for any bidder to see. It'll solve to those parameters on the first solution.

Your system requires multiple solutions because of its configuration.

As for only being as good as the people that bid in front of you, it'll show you what percentage of people have changed their standing bid who are senior to you. It'll also show you how many people have change their bid in the last 12, 24, 36, etc hours. There have been test showing that most people bid early and rarely change their bid afterward. There is no advantage to senior guys changing their bid at the last moment. They all want max days off or day trips, or commutable, etc and once they've bid and see the line they'll probably get, there is no need for them to go back and change it.

 

[enuffalready]

I don't think you understand the way smartpref works. There is no need to run it multiple times in smartpref to get the most efficient solutions. The parameters are all set ahead of time and there for any bidder to see. It'll solve to those parameters on the first solution.

Your system requires multiple solutions because of its configuration.

there is no set solution to pbs... thats the point of PBS... it allows the company to run it, switch it to what fits them best.... otherwise they would stick with line bidding

 

[Nevets]

there is no set solution to pbs... thats the point of PBS... it allows the company to run it, switch it to what fits them best.... otherwise they would stick with line bidding

What I'm saying is that with smartpref, of the company wants X amount of lines in order to have X amount of reserves for any given day of the month, they set that ahead of time (and you can see those parameters ahead of time), and the software will build to that given set of parameters the first time.

Not all PBS software work the same. It's different from how prefbid works.

 

[Nevets]

however if this is something the XJT guys want... then fine... tweak what we have and add this real time bid.... but dont scrap all the great stuff we have with our current pbs

Most of you guys were apprehensive about going to PBS. But now you see that it's better than what you previously had. How do you know the same cannot be true again? I'm glad that conversation is finally starting to take place in order to ascertain that.

 

[enuffalready]

What I'm saying is that with smartpref, of the company wants X amount of lines in order to have X amount of reserves for any given day of the month, they set that ahead of time (and you can see those parameters ahead of time), and the software will build to that given set of parameters the first time.

Not all PBS software work the same. It's different from how prefbid works.

the company wants the flexibility to move around..... and that is ok with most of us... its give and take..

 

[Nevets]

the company wants the flexibility to move around..... and that is ok with most of us... its give and take..

Ya, no doubt. I don't have a problem with that as long as its a give and take, like you said. With smartpref, the company can set different amount of reserve pilots for any given day of the month. And you would see that ahead of time. It'll show you how many planned absences there are, how many duty periods have to be covered, and it'll also show you this information for you at your seniority depending on what the people senior to you have bid. For example, you want Christmas off, it knows it has 100 duty periods to cover that day, it also knows that 90 people senior to you have bid that day off, you will see that before you do anything. The company gets the coverage and reserves it feels it needs and you get to see that ahead of time and bid accordingly.