New AGE limit discussion

[laker4284]

Laker, Mica had the bill sitting in subommittee. A bill has to go to subcommittee where it's marked up prior to being released to committee.
In this case, Mica was ranking member in the Aviation Subcommittee where he could and did block the bill, as per House rules.
What Mica was doing in the Aviation Subcommittee was that he blocked any action on the bill to get it out of Subcommittee. http://www.lexisnexis.com/help/CU/The_Legislative_Process/Stage_3.htm

How do I know Mica was the one blocking it? Inside sources.

Your link is correct in HOW the markup process works. Where you go wrong is using Mica as the man who mattered. If your sources actually told you that, he was dead wrong.

Leadership for the House Transportation committee and the Aviation Subcommittee were in the hands of Oberstar and DeFazio, respectively. Both were Dems and Dems were in control of the House and the Senate and were in control of the various committees and sub committees. Mica was the minority leader of the committee (known as the ranking member in Congress' arcane terminology). The ranking member is NOT a member of congressional or committee leadership. In the House, more so than in the Senate, the ranking member doesn't have jack to say about moving legislation forward or stop it from going forward. You only have to look at how the Republicans have stonewalled the Dems for the last two years to see how that works (Pelosi is now the ranking member and minority leader). Back in '06 and '07 it worked the same way, except the Dems (Oberstar and DeFazio) were the ones calling the shots on the relative committees.

From Wiki: "Another usage refers to the most senior member of a congressional or state legislative committee from the minority party.[2] This second usage, often used by the media, should properly be referred to as the ranking minority member. "

Mica, as committee chairman, was an early co-sponsor (see Thomas.gov) of the age bills and wrote strongly worded letters to Oberstar, DeFazio and the FAA calling for immediate change.

Not sure why your source has this backward but it might explain why he thought things got "rushed" through when, in fact, they had been moving forward for quite some time.

 

[laker4284]

I earlier said I thought another age change wouldn't happen any time soon and I still believe that.

Without a strong group like APAAD (disbanded) and SWAPA (on record as being opposed to another change) pushing for change the idea won't get the visibility it needs, nor the legs, not the money.

However,

I see the biggest danger coming from the more than a little foolish change in pilot qualifications. If the pipeline gets choked then the only way to fill those cockpit seats is by keeping pilots in the cockpit who might otherwise retire. On a related but different note, I think the idea that any pilot shortage would give pilots some kind of wage leverage is wildly overblown. More likely, growth would be stunted and another pilot change might get pushed into play.

 

[Flopgut]

Laker: Talked to my Congressman. He said there is no effort to change the age now. In addition to mentioning there would be huge changes to medical standards if there is another increase, he indicated that epic furloughs and stagnation for the junior pilots will be addressed. IMHO, that means the old guys will go to the bottom of the list.

 

[PFTEXPJET]

I see the biggest danger coming from the more than a little foolish change in pilot qualifications.

Can you say; MPL?

 

[laker4284]

Laker: Talked to my Congressman. He said there is no effort to change the age now. In addition to mentioning there would be huge changes to medical standards if there is another increase, he indicated that epic furloughs and stagnation for the junior pilots will be addressed. IMHO, that means the old guys will go to the bottom of the list.

Flop,

I commend you for contacting your Congressman. Most guys say they will, but don't and rely on hearsay or rumors. That said, I'd be remiss in not warning you of some of the realities of dealing with our politicians.

Did you talk to your congressman or an aide? Usually you need a connection - or be very lucky - to score a chat with "the man" himself. Aides are easy to come by but often tell you what you want to hear, or have their own axes to grind which are not always in line with their bosses. Even talking to the Big Guy himself can be misleading.

The politicians often tell you what they think you want to hear and sometimes they actually believe it. Then they talk to their inside "experts" - the aides - and are told why they can or cannot support some issue. They can hang up the phone with you and do a 180 in an hour.

Then comes the questions, "What political party is he in?" If he is not a member of the party in control he has little or no ability to implement any policy. For that matter, is the guy a senior one or a junior one? That matters too because you need a champion for you cause with some heft.

Lastly, if a single congressman out of 435 gives you his opinion that's the opinion of one-quarter of one percent of the House. That's a shaky base upon which to bet your career.

All of the above matters just as much in the comments about medicals or seniority issues. You were given an opinion. How that squares with leadership (pushing a policy), political compromise (absolutes tend not to remain absolutes), and federal law (discrimination laws, EEOC, etc).

What I'm saying is - I see the same mistakes and the same assumptions being made on this forum that were made by the "no change" advocates four - or ten- years ago. If you don't have solid data, have a group organized to protect your interests, etc. you will - again - be outhustled, outmaneuvered, and out of luck.

Those who don't learn from history are often forced to relive it.

 

[laker4284]

I see the biggest danger coming from the more than a little foolish change in pilot qualifications.

Can you say; MPL?

????

Not so great with acronyms.

????

 

[Mamma]

????

Not so great with acronyms.

????

Multi-crew pilot license.

http://www.age60rule.com/docs/What%20is%20MPL.pdf

To fill that demand, the Multi-Crew Pilot License has been invented. What is MPL?

MPL stands for Multi-Crew Pilot License, an alternative approach to traditional pilot training that concentrates on very specific training for line operations in modern transport aircraft. MPL programs incorporate ab initio, bridge and type rating training, and emphasize crew resource management and operations in a multi-crew environment. These programs use competency based training/assessment, mandatory upset recovery training, and increase the use of flight simulation training devices. The MPL concept provides an alternative to traditional pilot training approaches that date back to the 1940s.
The driver behind MPL is the increasing demand for qualified pilots. With this growing demand, training organizations need to be able to train candidates more efficiently. The MPL program will prepare a freshly trained pilot to occupy the co-pilot’s seat on a jet transport after logging a minimum of 240 hours of flight time, including as many as 170 hours in appropriate flight synthetic training devices. MPL is seen as part of the solution to today’s economic challenge, in part because the program can be undertaken with newly affordable, high quality non-legacy flight simulation technology. The requirement for just 240 hours is made possible because of the technology employed by modern training aircraft and the leap forward in simulator technology, which provides an exceptional virtual experience. This promotes safety without the need to log as many flight hours as in the past. Together, the simulator and general aviation aircraft manufacturers offer the most flexible, accessible and cost-effective training solution for implementing the MPL concept.
It's a very big deal in China and India because it could enable them to produce the staggering number of pilots that they will need over the next 20 years quicker than is currently possible.
Another view...
If you thought the right-seater on your last regional jet flight could use some acne medication, consider the veritable baby boom going on in the cockpits of some Indian airliners. According to the Times of India, there are 19-year-olds flying as first officers in single-aisle airliners like Boeing 737s and A320s and the four-striper beside them might be as young as 25. "Going by a conservative estimate, currently in India about 5 percent of commanders on single-aisle jet aircraft ... are under 30
years of age. This trend will only grow," said Capt. R. Otaal, general secretary of the Indian Commercial Pilot's Association. The rapid expansion of commercial aviation in India, coupled with the virtual absence of general aviation, have combined for the phenomenon. Otaal said Indian pilots train almost exclusively for airline positions and the training has become very focused. A young pilot can be commercially rated at 18 and, for some airlines, needs just 1,500 hours of right-seat time in an airliner to get control of the wheel. Not everyone is happy about the youth movement, especially given the sometimes-demanding flying conditions in India. "If one becomes a commander after flying as a copilot for only two monsoons, there is a level of risk involved due to lack of experience," an unnamed "aviation observer" told the Times. "One must remember that a 19-year-old copilot may be sharing the cockpit with a 25-year-old commander -- there are hardly any years of experience between them."
Ed. Observation: Pilots obtaining an MPL may never have a solo flight!

 

[Saabslime]

Multi-crew pilot license.

http://www.age60rule.com/docs/What%20is%20MPL.pdf

To fill that demand, the Multi-Crew Pilot License has been invented. What is MPL?

MPL stands for Multi-Crew Pilot License, an alternative approach to traditional pilot training that concentrates on very specific training for line operations in modern transport aircraft. MPL programs incorporate ab initio, bridge and type rating training, and emphasize crew resource management and operations in a multi-crew environment. These programs use competency based training/assessment, mandatory upset recovery training, and increase the use of flight simulation training devices. The MPL concept provides an alternative to traditional pilot training approaches that date back to the 1940s.
The driver behind MPL is the increasing demand for qualified pilots. With this growing demand, training organizations need to be able to train candidates more efficiently. The MPL program will prepare a freshly trained pilot to occupy the co-pilot’s seat on a jet transport after logging a minimum of 240 hours of flight time, including as many as 170 hours in appropriate flight synthetic training devices. MPL is seen as part of the solution to today’s economic challenge, in part because the program can be undertaken with newly affordable, high quality non-legacy flight simulation technology. The requirement for just 240 hours is made possible because of the technology employed by modern training aircraft and the leap forward in simulator technology, which provides an exceptional virtual experience. This promotes safety without the need to log as many flight hours as in the past. Together, the simulator and general aviation aircraft manufacturers offer the most flexible, accessible and cost-effective training solution for implementing the MPL concept.
It's a very big deal in China and India because it could enable them to produce the staggering number of pilots that they will need over the next 20 years quicker than is currently possible.
Another view...
If you thought the right-seater on your last regional jet flight could use some acne medication, consider the veritable baby boom going on in the cockpits of some Indian airliners. According to the Times of India, there are 19-year-olds flying as first officers in single-aisle airliners like Boeing 737s and A320s and the four-striper beside them might be as young as 25. "Going by a conservative estimate, currently in India about 5 percent of commanders on single-aisle jet aircraft ... are under 30
years of age. This trend will only grow," said Capt. R. Otaal, general secretary of the Indian Commercial Pilot's Association. The rapid expansion of commercial aviation in India, coupled with the virtual absence of general aviation, have combined for the phenomenon. Otaal said Indian pilots train almost exclusively for airline positions and the training has become very focused. A young pilot can be commercially rated at 18 and, for some airlines, needs just 1,500 hours of right-seat time in an airliner to get control of the wheel. Not everyone is happy about the youth movement, especially given the sometimes-demanding flying conditions in India. "If one becomes a commander after flying as a copilot for only two monsoons, there is a level of risk involved due to lack of experience," an unnamed "aviation observer" told the Times. "One must remember that a 19-year-old copilot may be sharing the cockpit with a 25-year-old commander -- there are hardly any years of experience between them."
Ed. Observation: Pilots obtaining an MPL may never have a solo flight!

Note to self: NEVER purchase a ticket on an Indian airline

 

[laker4284]

I see the biggest danger coming from the more than a little foolish change in pilot qualifications.

Can you say; MPL?

I doubt that plan would fly in the US of A. Pilot quals were changed upwardly because of kids coming straight out of college and into the right seat of RJs. That was proof-positive that at that time in our industry there was a pilot shortage (it ended abruptly when it ended, but it was alive and unwell for a while).

That play gave us the Colgan pilots, which led to new quals. So MPL won't fly.

However, down the road, if a shortage looms again and the pipeline was arbitrarily choked where will those pilots come from? A pipeline takes time to fill, after all.

This is where risk comes from another upward change in retirement age.

I picked up my new (March) ALPA rag (I meant mag) and there on page 21 was this - "Age 60 line checks: The new law [FAA Reauthorization] eliminates the mandatory every-six month line check evaluation beginning at age 60."

Over-60 pilots have been flying for many, many years in other countries. We are late to that dance but those other countries have a LOT of pilot-hours with pilots over 60. No problems. Congressman Oberstar, an egotistical fool lately voted out of office, preferred to be called "Mr. Aviation."

Really. No kidding.

The extra line checks were his idea. For safety. However, no one but him actually wanted that idea, no one pushed for it and no one liked it. Not the companies, not ALPA, not the FAA, not SWAPA and not APAAD.

Now it is gone. Not needed from the beginning and not needed now that there is four years of U.S. data with pilots over 60.

The question for you is whether or not the industry reaches December 2012 and realizes that 65 was just another arbitrary age but not one that had meaning relative to safety. If so, the door is open for another change should the need arise.

I don't see that in 2012. Maybe down the road not soon.

As I said before, however, you need to be smart, prepared and not buying into rumors from sources that support what you want to hear rather than what is actually looming before you.

Who knows? You guys that in ten years will be pushing the 50s or 60s might be the ones to support (or face) a change to 67. However you cut it - be smart, be educated and be active.

 

[waveflyer]

However you cut it - be smart, be educated and be active.

Hope so on the MPL- doubtful on my support of age 67 as captains-
But definitely this^^^^