New:2004 NetJet Payscales!

[3Wire]

Out of the mouths of babes....

FlyLow,

Well.......I'm not going to convince you that the airline lifestyle is better by having this silly coffee discussion, so I will digress. The C-750 is not a bad ride, but keep in mind FL470 and M0.92 will only impress your Mom. I've only tagged along in the right seat of the X a couple of times, I much prefer Falcon 2000. But as you might guess, I'd trade them all for a good old A-320. Have a good one.

USMC319,

You are an idiot....and an embarrassment to your username (and as a former Marine Aviator and current Reservist, I have every right to say that).

I've read your crap way too often and I'm using my 1ST post to tell YOU that you need to stop opining on things about which you, clearly, have no understanding. Seems like you have something to prove to yourself. Frustrated are we??.....typical. $50 bucks says I guess your airframe pipeline, in the Corps, in 1 guess.

and P.S.......don't hold your breath for a response, you'll suffocate.

Semper fly,

 

[USMC319]

3Wire,


It seems that you are the one that is a bit "frustrated". Chopper pilot? Settle down son. And don't berate me and my beloved Corps. You don't rate, I can assure you of that. I'd like to hear your guess anyway. By your tone I think you will be way off. Now get down and give me 50.

Flylow22,
The Maxwell House is fine but I prefer Folgers. The flighties usually offer the crew Starbucks, but I don't like the stuff. If it makes you happy, I'll be impressed with your C-750. I was just trying to give you a compliment pal. However, I know you secretly like your old US Airways Airbus better.

 

[beerfarter]

in the words of roger daltry: "everything's f*cked...it's a put-on."

management everywhere knows that when it comes to pilots, there is ALWAYS a pilot somewhere willing to f*ck another pilot and fly for chicken feed.

this situation is analogous to pft...one guy started it, a manager noticed and everyone was f*cked. one guy (probably the same guy) agreed to work for $hit, a manager noticed and everyone was f*cked.

 

[Number$Cruncher]

Your overhead comment would go over for a AIRLINE.

But the owners pay their fees every month like clockwork. This whole gig should be set up to make money if the jets sit.. and we all sit in hotels doing nothing.

Should make MORE money if we are flying.

Should make EVEN MORE money if we are flying and selling marquis cards at a markup over regular owners rates.

Does make HUGE MONEY on the difference betweeen share price (MSRP for the plane) and what netjets negotiates with manufacturers for. It is a VERY big deal for manufacturers to cover their RnD cost, and get a plane out to market. I'm sure the rates that NJA gets on planes are at or below "cost" for some of these programs.

It's a whole different ball of wax. We don't depend on people shopping around and buying a ticket. I can't envision ONE of our owners sitting in a airport lounge waiting on a cattle call to get on a smelly old airliner.

JP

I simply can't believe what you wrote in this post. You have demonstrated pretty clearly a complete lack of understanding for the economics of your business. Unless you educate yourself even just a little, you're doomed to spend next few dozen years becoming more and more bitter about all of the money you didn't make. I'd suggest buying an introductory book on ecomomics. With few exceptions, in our society few people get paid what they deserve, they are paid what the market will bear.

 

[Lrjet55]

Some folks will always search out the lower price deal...and suffer the consequences. Ask Paine Stewart's widow if she wishes he'd bought a share.

Dang Griz, thats a helluva good shot. Soooo very true though.

 

[Lear70]

Griz is pretty close to the mark, but not entirely accurate.

Paine Stewart DID own a share... at Flexjet. I flew him around several times in and out of SGJ (Saint Augustine) along with his father - two very friendly and personable gentlemen. Paine's favorite thing was to play with the FMS... he always wanted to come up and chat, then asked if he could program something in.

My last week at Flexjet I flew Mr. Stewart to the U.S. Open and back, and the day of the accident I was just finishing my first week of Indoc at Express One and we heard the news. I immediately called Flexjet to find out who was flying him and was told, "It's not one of ours. He called for a plane this morning with four hour's notice, we didn't have one for him for at least 7 hours, and he got his own charter".

He did get his own charter through a "friend" of his... one where the Captain had less then 100 hours in a Lear and the F/O had less than 1500 Total Time, no previous jet experience, and had just come out of Initial Simuflite. Rumor has it maintenance had been done on the O2 system and the mechanic left the O2 bottle off to save air until use (normal practice). Either the f/o didn't check it on preflight (bottle located on the vertical stab - requires a ladder to get to it) or she didn't know that when the knob says "off", it's really on, and when the knob says "on", it's in the off position (there's an itty bitty arrow beside the word that tells you to turn it that direction for the desired position).

But even though this little anecdote may be interesting to some, the original point Griz made was correct: you may get out cheaper chartering an aircraft, but nothing is worth having family and friends lose their life to stupidity, incompetence, or just plain old inexperience... things you don't see much at the fractionals these days when the Captains and F/O's flying have several YEARS in their respective aircraft 99% of the time (there's a REASON insurance companies want time in type).

Number Cruncher, you just proved you have absolutely NO understanding of the fractional biz. Part of the Marquis Card markup price includes additional pilot costs, but amazingly the pilots don't see an extra dime of that, even though their salary is already paid for with the base cost of ownership and every dime of Marquis Card "pilot costs" go straight into the pockets of ownership as additional profit. (I always had a problem with that at Flexjet too).

Here's a market reality in the aviation world: when your company is profitable you can ask for more on your end without putting the company in a financial bind and require them to share their profits (oh my God, did he just say SHARE??!! )

And you're dead wrong: in a union shop you don't get what you deserve, nor what the "market will bear", you get what you NEGOTIATE.

 

[Number$Cruncher]

If you haven't seen this before it's called flame-bait. Number$Cruncher is a guy with absolutely no credibility on these boards (3 whole posts...all tonight) that gets on to espouse his/her point of view ...however ridiculous it may be.

Let's take this one piece at a time. First, you're right...I have just begun to post on this board, but I have been a lurker for a long time. I hope that credibility is built not only by posting things that everyone agrees with. My post was not to intentionally get a rise out of anyone for the sport of it, but I thought it might get some flak.

Number Cruncher, you just proved you have absolutely NO understanding of the fractional biz. Part of the Marquis Card markup price includes additional pilot costs, but amazingly the pilots don't see an extra dime of that, even though their salary is already paid for with the base cost of ownership and every dime of Marquis Card "pilot costs" go straight into the pockets of ownership as additional profit. (I always had a problem with that at Flexjet too).

I really do have an understanding of the fractional biz, and you've misunderstood my point. When it comes to you getting paid what the market will bear vs. what you deserve, I'm not suggesting that is should be this way, it is that it simply is this way.

Any business that enjoyed market demand so high that it could support prices as high as JP11 suggested would quickly face competition as others entered to get their own share of the pie. Granted, with an operation as complex as a fractional network it might take some time, but the competion will come. That's the basic bit of economics that JP11 misses.

Here's a market reality in the aviation world: when your company is profitable you can ask for more on your end without putting the company in a financial bind and require them to share their profits (oh my God, did he just say SHARE??!! )

If you've set up a profit sharing arrangement, sure. You'll get a piece of the profits. But what makes us, as pilots, so special to get more than anyone else at the company for a line item that you say says "pilot"? Would you be as willing to take a pay cut when the company is not profitable? You shouldn't...just as you shouldn't arbitrarily get a piece of the additional costs earmarked as "pilot costs."

Your point about the customer goes with another post I made yesterday about someone wanting a tip, as a limo driver had gotten, for carrying bags. As far as the customer is concerned, their number one concern is usually safety. They want to be as sure as they can that the operation they fly with is safe. Period. They trust "the company" to do whatever it takes to maintain the aircraft and to hire pilots that will get them from A to B safely. If "the market" for pilots is so expensive that the company must charge more than they can afford, then they will not purchase...or they'll go to another operator whose operation meets their criteria. So how do the customers decide which operator is safe? Ask your customers, but they'll look at overall safety record, what their friends say (don't dismiss that fact for a second), and whether the airplanes "look" safe. You'll find that while they might enjoy seeing the same face in the cockpit many times, the fractional customer places little added value on that. They're buying the consistency demonstrated by the Netjets (or FlightOptions) product, and a qualified pilot is simply another piece of that product.

For some customers, they are so very concerned about safety that they want to know and control everything about the operation. They buy their own equipment, hire their own crews, and pay them whatever they have to to keep them. This is an example of a market that will bear significantly more than the broader one. Corporate aviation is often this way, as can VHNW individuals. But whether you like it or not, for fractionals there will always be an ample supply of pilots (the only shortage will be in the training pipeline), and that supply will drive down the cost to hire them.

And you're dead wrong: in a union shop you don't get what you deserve, nor what the "market will bear", you get what you NEGOTIATE

That might be true in the short term, but ask the pilots at the legacy carriers how that is working out for them. Better to build a sustainable business that will provide a more stable income over the course of a career, don't you think? Businesses that have to raise prices to cover the increasing costs (whatever they are) will eventually face a shrinking market, customers that move to lower-cost alternatives, or both.

 

[niteflyr]

"I hope that credibility is built not only by posting things that everyone agrees with."

Unfortunately Number Cruncher this is exactly how this place works...