Griz said:
If you haven't seen this before it's called flame-bait. Number$Cruncher is a guy with absolutely no credibility on these boards (3 whole posts...all tonight) that gets on to espouse his/her point of view ...however ridiculous it may be.
Let's take this one piece at a time. First, you're right...I have just begun to post on this board, but I have been a lurker for a long time. I hope that credibility is built not only by posting things that everyone agrees with. My post was not to intentionally get a rise out of anyone for the sport of it, but I thought it might get some flak.
Lear70 said:
Number Cruncher, you just proved you have absolutely NO understanding of the fractional biz. Part of the Marquis Card markup price includes additional pilot costs, but amazingly the pilots don't see an extra dime of that, even though their salary is already paid for with the base cost of ownership and every dime of Marquis Card "pilot costs" go straight into the pockets of ownership as additional profit. (I always had a problem with that at Flexjet too).
I really do have an understanding of the fractional biz, and you've misunderstood my point. When it comes to you getting paid what the market will bear vs. what you deserve, I'm not suggesting that is
should be this way, it is that it simply
is this way.
Any business that enjoyed market demand so high that it could support prices as high as JP11 suggested would quickly face competition as others entered to get their own share of the pie. Granted, with an operation as complex as a fractional network it might take some time, but the competion
will come. That's the basic bit of economics that JP11 misses.
Lear70 said:
Here's a market reality in the aviation world: when your company is profitable you can ask for more on your end without putting the company in a financial bind and require them to share their profits (oh my God, did he just say SHARE??!! )
If you've set up a profit sharing arrangement, sure. You'll get a piece of the profits. But what makes us, as pilots, so special to get more than anyone else at the company for a line item that you say says "pilot"? Would you be as willing to take a pay
cut when the company is not profitable? You shouldn't...just as you shouldn't arbitrarily get a piece of the additional costs earmarked as "pilot costs."
Your point about the customer goes with another post I made yesterday about someone wanting a tip, as a limo driver had gotten, for carrying bags. As far as the customer is concerned, their number one concern is usually safety. They want to be as sure as they can that the operation they fly with is safe. Period. They trust "the company" to do whatever it takes to maintain the aircraft and to hire pilots that will get them from A to B safely. If "the market" for pilots is so expensive that the company must charge more than they can afford, then they will not purchase...or they'll go to another operator whose operation meets their criteria. So how do the customers decide which operator is safe? Ask your customers, but they'll look at overall safety record, what their friends say (don't dismiss that fact for a second), and whether the airplanes "look" safe. You'll find that while they might enjoy seeing the same face in the cockpit many times, the fractional customer places little added value on that. They're buying the consistency demonstrated by the Netjets (or FlightOptions) product, and a qualified pilot is simply another piece of that product.
For some customers, they are
so very concerned about safety that they want to know and control everything about the operation. They buy their own equipment, hire their own crews, and pay them whatever they have to to keep them. This is an example of a market that will bear significantly more than the broader one. Corporate aviation is often this way, as can VHNW individuals. But whether you like it or not, for fractionals there will always be an ample supply of pilots (the only shortage will be in the training pipeline), and that supply will drive down the cost to hire them.
Lear70 said:
And you're dead wrong: in a union shop you don't get what you deserve, nor what the "market will bear", you get what you NEGOTIATE
That might be true in the short term, but ask the pilots at the legacy carriers how that is working out for them. Better to build a sustainable business that will provide a more stable income over the course of a career, don't you think? Businesses that have to raise prices to cover the increasing costs (whatever they are) will eventually face a shrinking market, customers that move to lower-cost alternatives, or both.
) 
