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Netjets....What to do?

O

Otto Coarsen

Ok I've been doing searches, but can't seem to find the imput I'm looking for.

I'm a Dash-8 Capt at Mesa right now. I've been in this seat for about a year and a half. I HATE Mesa life and am pretty much burned on 121 completely. I've been at 2 121 carriers, 135 single pilot stuff like caravan freight and 402's at Cape Air. MOST of my friends from past jobs are at Frac-Corporate jobs and are MUCH happier than me.

So...... I put out my feelers and contacted friends at NJA, FJ, and CS. I live in Denver and have a Family here so I don't really want to move. With that said CS and NJA seem to work better.

I have a thick NJA application sitting here in front of me and I'm feeling pretty good about filling it out but have some concerns.

1 - Salary... It says FOs get 28,000 to start? Is it typical to make more through overtime etc.? Also No per diem right? Just expense things via credit card?

2 - Schedule... It explains several different schedule options like 7 on 7 off, 17 day duty 4/3? Typically, in 1 month how many days can I expect to be home?

3 - Current situation... I'm a union guy and I'd never want to compromise a union's attempt at bettering QOL over there for you guys. Would coming on board now hurt the negotiations? Is there a good chance of strike in the near future?

4 - Eqpt and Upgrade... Can a new hire go to any equipment? Approximately what is the upgrade time?


Thanks so much for your replies. I really need to decide whether about a 12,000 dollar pay cut is worth it for QOL.
 

Ultra Grump

Mmmmm...beer....
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Posts
974
Total Time
years
Hi -

1. Salary is $27,000 to start. $1.60/hr per diem. $19/hr overtime. If you fly a lot on a tour, you will not spend any of the per diem because of the crew food we get on the road. Overtime generally is for each hour before 8am on your first day of a tour, and over 12 hrs any day. At the interview, they'll tell you that per diem averages $5000/yr and overtime the same, so they'll tell you that you'll be really making about $37,000/yr. I don't know what your 401k situation is like at Mesa, but here it's a 50% match up to 15% of earnings. That was 2.5x what my last company provided, and added into my decision.

2. You'll be on the 17-day schedule to start. We were told that we could expect 7-7 within 2 quarters. Ain't happening. That said, I came from 121 where I had to commute, and I'm home a LOT more than I was there. Airlining 1st and last day always with a paid ticket is awesome.

3. Some will tell you that new hires will hurt negotiations - I don't see it that way. You have to remember that seniority in any unionized aviation job is everything. Act accordingly.

4. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to what aircraft people are assigned. Some are given a choice of x, y, or z airplanes, others are told which aircraft they're going into. If you are offered the job, find out which aircraft they're offering you. If there's a choice, great. If not, and you'd prefer a different aircraft, ask them for it and be ready to turn them down if you don't get it. Seems they're having trouble filling classes right now, so you should be able to get a better aircraft if you hold out. I wish someone had told me this when I was making this decision.

Forget about upgrade for quite a long time. The most junior upgrades in the Ultra are (realistically) about 2 yrs+, and that won't last.
 

acaTerry

SAPM
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Posts
2,393
Total Time
7000+
Ultra Grump said:
Forget about upgrade for quite a long time. The most junior upgrades in the Ultra are (realistically) about 2 yrs+, and that won't last.

Negative, number 2008 was awarded Ultra upgrade last week. Thats a Feb 2005 hire date.
 

YGBSM

Old flaccid member
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Posts
123
Total Time
>0
Ultra Grump said:
Hi -

1. Salary is $27,000 to start. $1.60/hr per diem. $19/hr overtime. If you fly a lot on a tour, you will not spend any of the per diem because of the crew food we get on the road. Overtime generally is for each hour before 8am on your first day of a tour, and over 12 hrs any day. At the interview, they'll tell you that per diem averages $5000/yr and overtime the same, so they'll tell you that you'll be really making about $37,000/yr. I don't know what your 401k situation is like at Mesa, but here it's a 50% match up to 15% of earnings. That was 2.5x what my last company provided, and added into my decision.

2. You'll be on the 17-day schedule to start. We were told that we could expect 7-7 within 2 quarters. Ain't happening. That said, I came from 121 where I had to commute, and I'm home a LOT more than I was there. Airlining 1st and last day always with a paid ticket is awesome.

3. Some will tell you that new hires will hurt negotiations - I don't see it that way. You have to remember that seniority in any unionized aviation job is everything. Act accordingly.

4. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to what aircraft people are assigned. Some are given a choice of x, y, or z airplanes, others are told which aircraft they're going into. If you are offered the job, find out which aircraft they're offering you. If there's a choice, great. If not, and you'd prefer a different aircraft, ask them for it and be ready to turn them down if you don't get it. Seems they're having trouble filling classes right now, so you should be able to get a better aircraft if you hold out. I wish someone had told me this when I was making this decision.

Forget about upgrade for quite a long time. The most junior upgrades in the Ultra are (realistically) about 2 yrs+, and that won't last.

Sounds like heaven.

The good news is, once you get hired you can come back here and b!tch about how bad they're f*cking you over.
 

Lrjet55

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 31, 2002
Posts
283
Total Time
!@#$%
I think you can figure on making around $32,000 your first year.

The upgrade question is tricky. Under normal circumstances you would not be able to hold a captain position in any airplane for probably 2 years but the pilot group has been asking all pilots not to bid the current ultra or 400XP so that the most junior pilot on the seniority list could bid it therefore granting every pilot senior to him/her captains pay.
So although you might not get the captain slot you will hopefully get the captain pay. Thats realy all thats important.
If you are hoping for the PIC time it will most likely be a while but if you want the pay then hopefully it will come within a few months of arriving on property.

As always, make sure you know what you are getting into. NJA is very different from what you have been doing. Im not saying it is better or worse, just make a very informed descision.
 

JustInfo

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2004
Posts
142
Total Time
7000
Just to throw my 2 cents out there before the negativity starts flooding in again. I personally like my job at NJA, better than any I have had under 91,135,121 etc. And it will only get better, as long as people stay professional and don't let this get drug into the mud any deeper. YES it has been a long wait for this contract business, and it will be a long time yet. I personally am getting tired of the bashing of other pilots and now even the owners (talk about unprofessional.) Neither of which is going to get this done any quicker. Someone already said it but this is WAY different than about any kind of flying so think seriously about wether or not you think it is for you. There are ALOT of people here that need to move on to something else because no matter what the contract comes out to be they will never be happy with this job. It just isn't for them. From what I have heard about Mesa I would say run don't walk out that door if you have the chance. JMHO!
 

semperfido

Keep Humpin
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Posts
1,873
Total Time
11K+
find a marine chief pilot...it worked for me 3 times...and if i was a chief and was hiring you would be in :)
s/f
 

Diesel

TEB Hilton resident
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,394
Total Time
696969
great who cares about skill or aptitude. Just hire a marine.
 
O

Otto Coarsen

Marine = Skill and aptitude :D


Anyway thanks for all the info everyone...
I'm going to fill it out and send it in. PIC time isn't my concern. Heck, I'm getting that now and it's not helping land the dream job :rolleyes: . QOL and pay are my only concerns. I'm a straight slave sitting ready reserve almost daily here at Mesa. I'll be sad leaving the mighty Dash, but I'm ready to move on.

Thanks again...!! Hope they call..
 

Diesel

TEB Hilton resident
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,394
Total Time
696969
oh they will call. You have a heartbeat and a breath don't you?

They will probably even have you come in without filling out the app. Just do it during the interview.

No i'm really not kidding.
 

FLYLOW22

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Posts
2,382
Total Time
TT
acaTerry said:
Negative, number 2008 was awarded Ultra upgrade last week. Thats a Feb 2005 hire date.

Terry,

You do realize that that junior captain award was the last of a series of orchestrated unity campaigns desinged to get as many NJA pilots on bypass pay to make the group as prepared as possible financially for a long "Abeyence" or "Recess"?

I would not look for another captain bid to go so low in seniority for some time now.

The junior bid was not a coincidence.
 

JustInfo

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2004
Posts
142
Total Time
7000
The Ultra bids actually are going really junior lately without any bypass grassroots whatever campaigns. Last legit bid was in the 1800's if I rememember correctly...
 

Ultra Grump

Mmmmm...beer....
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Posts
974
Total Time
years
acaTerry said:
Negative, number 2008 was awarded Ultra upgrade last week. Thats a Feb 2005 hire date.

I knew I'd have to explain myself to some numbnuts who can't see beyond the seniority number. :rolleyes: Heard of the "Operation Unity" campaign? There's a very good reason it went that low.

I'm pretty sure you'll be able to count on upgrade times increasing here in short order...
 
O

Otto Coarsen

Ultra Grump said:
I knew I'd have to explain myself to some numbnuts who can't see beyond the seniority number. :rolleyes: Heard of the "Operation Unity" campaign? There's a very good reason it went that low.

I'm pretty sure you'll be able to count on upgrade times increasing here in short order...

Numbnuts? Give the guy a break. He's new and I don't think he's even hit the line yet. How about educating instead of humiliating? You speak of unity, Jeez..
 

acaTerry

SAPM
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Posts
2,393
Total Time
7000+
FLYLOW22 said:
Terry,

You do realize that that junior captain award was the last of a series of orchestrated unity campaigns desinged to get as many NJA pilots on bypass pay to make the group as prepared as possible financially for a long "Abeyence" or "Recess"?

I would not look for another captain bid to go so low in seniority for some time now.

The junior bid was not a coincidence.

Well, another H400XP bid for 12 just came out and it would not suprise me. Some rather SENIOR guys (600-700 range) are pretty optimistic about the upgrades due to delivery schedules. Of course, they are not bitter and have been here for a long time.
 
Last edited:

FLYLOW22

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Posts
2,382
Total Time
TT
acaTerry said:
Well, another H400XP bid for 12 just came out and it would not suprise me. Some rather SENIOR guys (600-700 range) are pretty optimistic about the upgrades due to delivery schedules. Of course, they are not bitter and have been here for a long time.

Wrong words were used by me to describe the recent 400XP bid results. I said "I would be surprised to see the bid go so low". Let me clarify and say that I would be surprised to see any captain bids go JUNIOR into the 2000's for some time. The only reason it did go into that seniority area was due to the Captain Bypass program designed to get as many pilots on Captain pay as possible to prepare for a lengthy stay in Recess courtesy of Your Friendly Neighborhood NMB.

I would look for many captains and senior F/O's to bid any Captain positions for the time being. The rapid delivery schedule for the 400XP may produce some "relatively" junior numbers at times (like it did with all fleets except the BBJ and DA-2000 a few years back) but those pilots will be relegated to the 17 day schedule which has the tendancy to drive a pilot nuts after being on the business end of Chop Suey (Chuck Shuey) and his scheduling practices for more than a few years.

If a junior pilot awarded a Captain slot finds themselves wanting to bid off of the most junior piece of equipement, as a Captain, to gain a better schedule than the 17 day then the only choice is to go back to F/O and LOSE CAPTAIN PAY FOREVER.

Yes. That is a choice. For the Junior it is a choice between keeping 3 stripes, Captain pay and a great schedule or giving that all up for 4 stripes (never actually flying PIC though), a crap sched and the same pay they are getting now.
 
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