NetJets Union Disaster Unfolding

[G4dude]

I am a simple guy...why is it in NJA's interest to change the interpretation of the recall rules?

 

[T-1GUY]

Spoken like a true Military man, I got mine.

Really? I got mine? I got ten and a half years of military service for my country. I got several major surgeries and metal in my body. I have pain that I live with everyday until I die. I don't have a retirement pension, but I do have self worth. Is that what you meant by I got mine?

 

[PoorGuy]

Spoken like a true Military man, I got mine.

Wow, aren't you a class act... Did a military service member steal away your old lady? Let me guess, you blame your second rate aviation career on a military pilot that got the job you'll never have....You must be a PIC at NJ. You don't deserve to stand in the same room as someone who has served this country in our military.

 

[av8tor4239]

Get off the military reference.... That was a personal jab and uncalled for. With that said, there is a very serious un-justice taking place as we debate on this forum and others. Netjets pilots are being illegally terminated in mass, outside of the language and intent of the contract.

Read the language of the contract, 7.7 which was posted on page 1 of this thread. It protects the deferral rights of the furloughed pilot until he/she is "THE MOST JUNIOR CREWMEMBER" on the furloughed pilot seniority list. Up to 20 NON-DEFERRABLE recall notices are going out at once, as we speak with more to come.

Hypothetical here: Should NJASAP re-interpret the "no premium/no deductible" any doctor you want FREE health care provision of our contract since the entire healthcare landscape of our free nation has changed? Who negotiated that section of the contract? What was that negotiator thinking 9 years ago when that was signed? I say this because that is a line in the sand with most NJA pilots and something the company is coming at hard.... It is much easier to sell furloughed pilots seniority numbers and future careers, than it is to sell an a active members health care benefit... and we are not waiting to be sold, but rather have already BEEN SOLD... There were 15+ non-deferrable recall notices sent out on December 5 2014. NJASAP will NOT accept a grievance on the terms of section 7.7 of our contract. What would you do?

7.6 Duration of Recall Rights​

There will be no limitation on the duration of a crewmembers recall rights.​

7.7 Recall Deferral​

A crewmember on furlough may defer recall, provided there is a more junior​

crewmember on furlough on the date the recall notice is sent. If a​

crewmember is the most junior crewmember on furlough on the date the recall​

notice is sent and the crewmember does not accept the recall, he will​

be immediately terminated and removed from the Seniority List. If a​

crewmember desires to defer recall and is eligible to do so, the crewmember​

will notify the Company according to subsection 7.4 of this Agreement.​

Failure to give notice pursuant to subsection 7.4 will result in immediate​

termination and removal from the Seniority List. Notwithstanding subsection​

7.1, the Company may hire new crewmember(s) when a furloughed​

crewmember has deferred recall, provided all furloughed crewmembers,​

including crewmembers who have deferred the recall, will be offered the​

opportunity to fill any future vacancy prior to hiring new crewmembers. It is​

agreed and understood that crewmembers who have deferred the recall​

will have recall rights to future vacancies only.




NOTWITHSTANDING 7.1: (SEE ABOVE UNDERLINED)

7.1 Reduction in Personnel​

When a reduction in personnel becomes necessary, crewmembers active​

on the NetJets Aviation, Inc. Pilot Seniority List (?Seniority List?) will be furloughed​

in inverse seniority order. Management pilots on the Seniority List​

are subject to furlough as set forth in subsection 7.10 of this Agreement.​

New crewmembers will not be hired while crewmembers on the Seniority​

List are furloughed. A furloughed crewmember will continue to accrue seniority​

for the duration of the furlough. Each crewmember to be furloughed​

will be notified in writing of the furlough and an estimate of the probable duration​

thereof at his last filed address. Crewmembers to be furloughed will​

be given two (2) weeks notice, or two (2) weeks pay in lieu of such notice.​

Prior to giving crewmembers notice under this paragraph, the Company​

will provide the Union with the layoff list and a current Seniority List. However,​

should the furlough constitute a ?mass layoff? under the Worker Adjustment​

and Retraining Notification ?WARN? Act, crewmembers to be​

furloughed will receive sixty (60) days notice. Nothing herein will waive or​

limit crewmembers? rights under the WARN Act.​

.​

"NOTWITHSTANDING 7.1"​

Why is this in section 7.7 if the intention was not to let furloughed pilots continue to defer? The language is so clear and calculated.​

There is only ONE (1) place in the entire 391 page document (NJA CBA) are the words " IT IS AGREED AND UNDERSTOOD" written.... secton 7.7 RECALL/DEFERRAL.... The people that are claiming a 180 degree opposite stance on contractual language have written "it is agreed to and understood" in the language that they are claiming is invalid because of intent.... WHAT DOES "IT IS AGREED TO AND UNDERSTOOD" MEAN?​

Let it be known, there are NO interpretive transcripts, negotiator notes, recordings, drawings, or any sort of evidence to support NJASAP and NJA's joint "re-interpretation" and illegal rewriting of the contract to illegally terminate pilots the way they are.

NJASAP is basing their enforcement of illegal terminations on the memory of a single man that negotiated this section of the contract 9 years ago, when self admittedly they never thought a furlough would happen.

 

[rajflyboy]

If you get the call and say no

That sounds like a personal issue and choice

Not a Netjets or Union issue

 

[Traderd]

From an outsider for sure, but this is a curious event.

Does the union somehow benefit from the termination of pilots on a current furlough? The company?

Just trying to understand why either entity cares if a recall is bypassed or accepted by a furloughed pilot. Must be a cost/savings/revenue item of some sort somewhere.

 

[Willy21]

This is just my opinion, this is not I agree or disagree with what is going on.

NetJets is short on crews and needs to get the hiring spooled up. They want to return the furloughed pilots first and then move onto new hires. The union doesn't benefit from removing people from the seniority list. I want all of the furloughed pilots that want to come back returned to the line ASAP.

 

[t-bone]

From an outsider for sure, but this is a curious event.

Does the union somehow benefit from the termination of pilots on a current furlough? The company?

Just trying to understand why either entity cares if a recall is bypassed or accepted by a furloughed pilot. Must be a cost/savings/revenue item of some sort somewhere.

Perhaps it's just that simple...for every class of new-hires at 1st year pay, the company clears off an equal number, or greater, of potential returnees that would come in at year 6/7/8 pay. Easier to budget when you know exactly where payroll will be in the next few years...

 

[Traderd]

Perhaps it's just that simple...for every class of new-hires at 1st year pay, the company clears off an equal number, or greater, of potential returnees that would come in at year 6/7/8 pay. Easier to budget when you know exactly where payroll will be in the next few years...

Makes sense from the company side. I can see that; first year pay vs some seniority equals a lower cost employee. Removes some variables regarding future labor costs.

So, a class filled with new hires would result in lower union dues as well. Perhaps the union likes the idea of senior guys being pushed back onto the line for that reason?

 

[JungleJett]

People...let the legal system work this out. The most vocal groups are those who feel they are being harmed and two PIC's.

For all you furloughees and recent recalls, MP wants you to know that since you have been gone, he has worked really really hard..and been paid for it. What you have or have not been doing while on furlough does not matter any longer. Time for you to get back to work, wear some red, and toe the line. What you think are your rights do not matter...there are bigger fish to fry. And if you see MP, make sure you thank him...he really wants to hear that from you.

 

[rajflyboy]

Perhaps it's just that simple...for every class of new-hires at 1st year pay, the company clears off an equal number, or greater, of potential returnees that would come in at year 6/7/8 pay. Easier to budget when you know exactly where payroll will be in the next few years...

ding ding ding

ding ding ding

ding ding ding

 

[JungleJett]

Make PIC and SIC pay the same.

 

[ghostrider64]

NJASAP laid it out today, they are interpreting the CBA exactly as is the company, therefore they will not pursue this, as they feel there is no grievance. BTW the person "interpreting on the unions side" is the one who negotiated the language to begin with.

A full class worth of guys are recalled, 30. If any fail to accept the offer, perhaps 10, those 10 then will be issued a final recall notice. Basically those that don't accept the offer, then would be "the most junior" and get one final chance to accept.

In essence, those on furlough seniority rights are being protected, because the most senior will be able to defer longer.

In the end everyone has to make a decision that fits their needs and futures. What I'm learning is it really sucks to be at the bottom of any list, and the rumor is we will be hiring 200 new guys this year, might be reason enough to come back, or not.

 

[ghostrider64]

Make PIC and SIC pay the same.

I don't think anyone would argue against this. The reality is the current FOs are as qualified as all the PICs. They've been here a minimum of 8 years now. My personal thoughts are there should be some who are FOs, new hires etc... whose status would change to PIC after a certain number of years actually flying the line. The number of years is open for debate, but the reality is this flying isn't duplicated many other places, and there is a big learning curve.

It's not just pushing throttles forward. Hell in the past week I flew to 2 places I've never heard of, that were both minimum runways lengths and widths required, and were both unattended without fuel etc... Had we not caught that last tid bit, we'd still be sitting there because dispatch hadn't given us enough fuel to get anywhere afterwards. Had I been fresh off new hire indoc, I certainly wouldn't have caught it.

 

[BentOver]

What were upgrades back in 2000-2005? And earlier in the 90's...

If I remember correctly a year or less....that sounds like a good number... Didn't some guys upgrade right after initial back in 2001ish?

 

[pilotyip]

the reality is this flying isn't duplicated many other places, and there is a big learning curve.

It's not just pushing throttles forward. Hell in the past week I flew to 2 places I've never heard of, that were both minimum runways lengths and widths required, and were both unattended without fuel etc... Had we not caught that last tid bit, we'd still be sitting there because dispatch hadn't given us enough fuel to get anywhere afterwards. Had I been fresh off new hire indoc, I certainly wouldn't have caught it.

Heck sound like the on-demand cargo business, except with people, maybe that is why NJ has hired 26 of our pilots over the years,

 

[SCT]

"It's not just pushing throttles forward. Hell in the past week I flew to 2 places I've never heard of, that were both minimum runways lengths and widths required, and were both unattended without fuel etc... Had we not caught that last tid bit, we'd still be sitting there because dispatch hadn't given us enough fuel to get anywhere afterwards. Had I been fresh off new hire indoc, I certainly wouldn't have caught it. "

No offense, but isn't that part of pre-flight planning that most any 91 pilot does every day?

 

[Willy21]

How much time does the part 91 pilot have to look at all of that? How many times does he plan for different airports in a day only to have them change multiple times at the last minute?

 

[ghostrider64]

There are those that always argue against others opinions. The years '99-'04 were terrifying for a multitude of reasons. Rapid expansion in any industry can and in our case was very dangerous, at times. We were in fact damned lucky not to have had a fatal accident, and there were many complete hull losses. Fortunately now, EVERYONE at NJA has years of experience, and we tend to make the job look incredibly easy. I purposefully delayed upgrading because I knew I had much more to learn before I felt I was comfortable enough to do the job safely.

Discount building experience of our work if you wish, but you'll never convince me that folks with ZERO jet time should be thrown into the left seat right after passing their type ratings. Then operating in completely unfamiliar geographic regions. Take a peek into third world corporate aviation and their accident rates, were often jobs are given based on familial ties, and not competence, or experience.

As Willy points out, most of us are doing 4 legs a day now, with one hour turns. A lot of things could and would be easily missed, if you hadn't developed a mental checklist of everything that's expected and required. Yesterday I had to review 3 different destination changes within that one hour period, due to trying to avoid ground delays at the original destination, and once again I ended up at a dinky airport I'd never been to. FUN TIMES

Once again, all those with years of experience should be receive PIC pay now, but they'd never actually fly as one. That's the selling point you'd have to make to the EMT, who wants to cut all of our pay BTW.

 

[ghostrider64]

"It's not just pushing throttles forward. Hell in the past week I flew to 2 places I've never heard of, that were both minimum runways lengths and widths required, and were both unattended without fuel etc... Had we not caught that last tid bit, we'd still be sitting there because dispatch hadn't given us enough fuel to get anywhere afterwards. Had I been fresh off new hire indoc, I certainly wouldn't have caught it. "

No offense, but isn't that part of pre-flight planning that most any 91 pilot does every day?

And no offense taken, it always looks much easier from the outside.

 

[Hawkered]

Yeah damn those guys who should be protected under our contract. Why would the door hit me on the ass?

...because you couldn't find another job at a 121 or reputable carrier, and should NOT have been employed in the first place if you think anyone owes you a job after this amount of time not having one that compares to an F/O salary with no immediate future of upgrade.

I can only wonder if you were qualified to really be employed in the first place.

 

[Hawkered]

"It's not just pushing throttles forward. Hell in the past week I flew to 2 places I've never heard of, that were both minimum runways lengths and widths required, and were both unattended without fuel etc... Had we not caught that last tid bit, we'd still be sitting there because dispatch hadn't given us enough fuel to get anywhere afterwards. Had I been fresh off new hire indoc, I certainly wouldn't have caught it. "

No offense, but isn't that part of pre-flight planning that most any 91 pilot does every day?

If you haven't done a take-off from a dirt strip where you pumped your own fuel from a 50 gallon drum, you're full of ******************** and not worthy in the first place.

Calm down on the melodrama princess!!!

 

[JetProp]

What were upgrades back in 2000-2005? And earlier in the 90's...

If I remember correctly a year or less....that sounds like a good number... Didn't some guys upgrade right after initial back in 2001ish?

Guys were upgrading during indoc, circa 02.

 

[JungleJett]

I doubt you have either. And if so, in what airplane and where?

If you haven't done a take-off from a dirt strip where you pumped your own fuel from a 50 gallon drum, you're full of ******************** and not worthy in the first place.

Calm down on the melodrama princess!!!

 

[imacdog]

...because you couldn't find another job at a 121 or reputable carrier, and should NOT have been employed in the first place if you think anyone owes you a job after this amount of time not having one that compares to an F/O salary with no immediate future of upgrade.

I can only wonder if you were qualified to really be employed in the first place.

That was rough. Could you try again in English, please?

 

[Hawkered]

The only thing "rough" here is reading all the whining $#?+ on here and the union message board.
If you don't like your union or the company then leave.

 

[Hawkered]

I doubt you have either. And if so, in what airplane and where?

In Siberia, living in a hut where I walked in bare feet to school at all times of the year uphill.

 

[imacdog]

The only thing "rough" here is reading all the whining $#?+ on here and the union message board.
If you don't like your union or the company then leave.

I'd prefer to work toward making both better. Sorry to hear that you like the way the company is going, considering you haven't left.

 

[Hawkered]

The Jerry Springer show is what you guys are turning this place into. Totally unprofessional!

 

[realityman]

The Jerry Springer show is what you guys are turning this place into. Totally unprofessional!

Then why is such an educated, fact-driven, unemotional person who thinks the job is wonderful such as yourself still on here?

Always fun to watch someone tell us if we're so unhappy with the job to just quit and go somewhere else, but then express dissatisfaction with these boards and yet continue hanging around.

Buh-bye.