NetJets Union Disaster Unfolding

[realityman]

Yeah damn those guys who should be protected under our contract. Why would the door hit me on the ass?

Are they getting their jobs back? With continuous accrual on the seniority list and at the corresponding year of pay that their seniority allows for?

Then I'd say they've had great protection under the contract.

They're coming back at a pay level five years more than when they left. How does that compare with other career carriers?

Like I said, I abhor the whole "intent" thing when interpreting the contract. The average line pilot, including the furloughed pilots, don't have access to the interpretive transcripts and such. We only have what's written to go on. So yes, I get it. I've had issue with it too. Just write the darn contract so it says what it means! You'd think it wouldn't be that hard.

However, in the end, that stuff DOES count, no matter how we hate it. I'm not saying the furloughed pilots ever have to like it. I doubt they will. But legal interpretations that go against what they believe doesn't mean the union is screwing them.

But hey, if they want to file a lawsuit only to find out what they've already been told, and creating division and rancor along the way during a critical time for us, then I guess there'll be no stopping them.

 

[dime line]

The writing has been on the wall that sometime between the fall and spring the recalls would happen and the list would be completed. Is a six month window really that hard to work with? You have had years to have a plan in place whether you were going to go back or leave. I feel for you that it came sooner than you planned, but sh$t happens in life. Make a decision based on the information at hand, and live with it. Life is never fair.

Spoken like a true Military man, I got mine.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Analyzing/interpreting individual pieces of the CBA cannot be excluded from other areas of the CBA or they lose the context in which they were written. While it would be nice to have "forever recall" privileges, the Company would have never allowed that to be written into the contract. As long as pilots are on furlough, the Company loses the flexibility they bargained for in 1.5(C)(4) which is a key scope provision for NJASAP pilots and a key flexibility provision for the Company business model after a furlough is over.

The bargaining trade for a lack of lengthy recall time window was probably both seniority and longevity accrual but you will have to ask M.L. or B.O. about that though since they were in charge at the time.

 

[acaTerry]

Spoken like a true Military man, I got mine.

Nope. As a rule, military types don't have the "I got mine" mentality....they are more of the lines of "You get what you earn and prepare for" mind set. If you take that as a bad thing, perhaps you were an Obama voter type and just want everyone else to take care of you. We've all been sh1t on in life and in aviation. And we get on with it. Dust yourself off and plug along.

 

[BentOver]

Are they getting their jobs back? With continuous accrual on the seniority list and at the corresponding year of pay that their seniority allows for?pretty much standard stuff

Then I'd say they've had great protection under the contract.

They're coming back at a pay level five years more than when they left. How does that compare with other career carriers?pretty much average, NJaSAP isn't special in that regard..except at career carriers the pay bump is higher

Like I said, I abhor the whole "intent" thing when interpreting the contract. The average line pilot, including the furloughed pilots, don't have access to the interpretive transcripts and such. We only have what's written to go on. So yes, I get it. I've had issue with it too. Just write the darn contract so it says what it means! You'd think it wouldn't be that hard.

However, in the end, that stuff DOES count, no matter how we hate it. I'm not saying the furloughed pilots ever have to like it. I doubt they will. But legal interpretations that go against what they believe doesn't mean the union is screwing them.

But hey, if they want to file a lawsuit only to find out what they've already been told, and creating division and rancor along the way during a critical time for us, then I guess there'll be no stopping them.

Funny, before recall, pilots at NJA have no problem sueing, walking picket lines etc... Feeling they have been wronged by the company..

Now some furloughees wish to express their displeasure and they are azzholes for doing it....??

Now there is not only the pre and post '05 pilots.. There are furloughed and non furloughed pilots....

 

[Willy21]

You are incorrect Bent, seniority accrual is standard but longevity is not. That is one thing the AA/Airways pilots are fighting for as we speak.

The only people making a line in the sand over furloughed and not furloughed pilots are a few furloughed pilots. It started by them pushing the older pilots to take the early out in '09 so they could stay. Now it's I want to come back on my terms only. Why should things change? In the end there is nothing anybody can do to make these few individuals happy. As you so eloquently said in another thread, "Them da breaks."

 

[jegermeister]

"Why is NJASAP trying to force furloughed pilots who have other job obligations to come back to a company that is extremely volatile, where hostages are being taken day by day?"

That's the crux of your fear, isn't it? Afraid to come join the fight? Come and fight, or don't, your choice. Nobody is forcing you, only you have the decision to make. But don't blame us that are there, fighting daily for a better life, that you hope to enjoy after the war is over.

Fear? Fear is watching the economy crumble just after you gave up a seniority number to go to bottom of another list. Fear is counting the bills just before Christmas knowing that you're out of work in January. Fear is trying to get a job when the first question in the interview is "do you have recall rights?".

I was lucky. It only took me two months to find a job. A job that pays less than I made at NJ. Now I fly as PIC on two different types (no dispatch, no union protection, no meteorologist). I was lucky I didn't lose my home. I was lucky I didn't go bankrupt. I was lucky my marriage survived. Many of the other furloughed guys weren't as lucky.

I guess I'm one of those guys asking for a hand out now. I owe 30k for a training contract for the job I'm at now. I signed a three year training contract that didn't start to pro-rate until after the first year. When I signed it, the general wisdom that a recall was far more than three years. I'd like to go back to NJ. Despite the current atmosphere, I think it's a better place than where I am now. I just need another year to work off my contract.

I'm not alone. There are plenty in my situation. If a few guys want to play the system, it shouldn't damn the folks who need the contract to do what it says it will. We're not asking for special treatment. The language is very clear as to how a recall should be performed. If it wasn't the intent of those who wrote it. They shouldn't have written it. With all of the posturing, this should have been an easy fight to pick with the company.

That is my peace. I went there because of the contract and mission. I made a lot friends that I flew with and look forward to joining them in defense of NJ.

 

[pilotyip]

Nope. As a rule, military types don't have the "I got mine" mentality....they are more of the lines of "You get what you earn and prepare for" mind set. If you take that as a bad thing, perhaps you were an Obama voter type and just want everyone else to take care of you. We've all been sh1t on in life and in aviation. And we get on with it. Dust yourself off and plug along.

That is why it is called the service, it is about what you can give and not what you can take. And if you have not been there it is difficult to understand.

 

[realityman]

Bent,

Willy hit the seniority thing for me. So I'll let that go.

Now, as to the rest, of you can't see the difference between the union sueing the company because they are BREAKING THE LAW in an attempt to bring us down, and some furloughed pilots sueing the union over a contract interpretation simply because they don't like what they were told, even if it's right, and doing a lot of damage to the very union that's trying to gain large improvements for EVERYBODY, then I guess we have nothing else to discuss.

If they actually do file a DFR lawsuit, the damage done will far exceed any "win" they hope to get out of it.

Puts them in a sucky position. But that's life.

 

[platinum750]

Life is as Netjets will be gone in 6 months. WB has had enough. BNSF is sucking more cash now and this niche thing as netjets will be an easy hole to fill.

 

[G4dude]

I am a simple guy...why is it in NJA's interest to change the interpretation of the recall rules?

 

[T-1GUY]

Spoken like a true Military man, I got mine.

Really? I got mine? I got ten and a half years of military service for my country. I got several major surgeries and metal in my body. I have pain that I live with everyday until I die. I don't have a retirement pension, but I do have self worth. Is that what you meant by I got mine?

 

[PoorGuy]

Spoken like a true Military man, I got mine.

Wow, aren't you a class act... Did a military service member steal away your old lady? Let me guess, you blame your second rate aviation career on a military pilot that got the job you'll never have....You must be a PIC at NJ. You don't deserve to stand in the same room as someone who has served this country in our military.

 

[av8tor4239]

Get off the military reference.... That was a personal jab and uncalled for. With that said, there is a very serious un-justice taking place as we debate on this forum and others. Netjets pilots are being illegally terminated in mass, outside of the language and intent of the contract.

Read the language of the contract, 7.7 which was posted on page 1 of this thread. It protects the deferral rights of the furloughed pilot until he/she is "THE MOST JUNIOR CREWMEMBER" on the furloughed pilot seniority list. Up to 20 NON-DEFERRABLE recall notices are going out at once, as we speak with more to come.

Hypothetical here: Should NJASAP re-interpret the "no premium/no deductible" any doctor you want FREE health care provision of our contract since the entire healthcare landscape of our free nation has changed? Who negotiated that section of the contract? What was that negotiator thinking 9 years ago when that was signed? I say this because that is a line in the sand with most NJA pilots and something the company is coming at hard.... It is much easier to sell furloughed pilots seniority numbers and future careers, than it is to sell an a active members health care benefit... and we are not waiting to be sold, but rather have already BEEN SOLD... There were 15+ non-deferrable recall notices sent out on December 5 2014. NJASAP will NOT accept a grievance on the terms of section 7.7 of our contract. What would you do?

7.6 Duration of Recall Rights​

There will be no limitation on the duration of a crewmembers recall rights.​

7.7 Recall Deferral​

A crewmember on furlough may defer recall, provided there is a more junior​

crewmember on furlough on the date the recall notice is sent. If a​

crewmember is the most junior crewmember on furlough on the date the recall​

notice is sent and the crewmember does not accept the recall, he will​

be immediately terminated and removed from the Seniority List. If a​

crewmember desires to defer recall and is eligible to do so, the crewmember​

will notify the Company according to subsection 7.4 of this Agreement.​

Failure to give notice pursuant to subsection 7.4 will result in immediate​

termination and removal from the Seniority List. Notwithstanding subsection​

7.1, the Company may hire new crewmember(s) when a furloughed​

crewmember has deferred recall, provided all furloughed crewmembers,​

including crewmembers who have deferred the recall, will be offered the​

opportunity to fill any future vacancy prior to hiring new crewmembers. It is​

agreed and understood that crewmembers who have deferred the recall​

will have recall rights to future vacancies only.




NOTWITHSTANDING 7.1: (SEE ABOVE UNDERLINED)

7.1 Reduction in Personnel​

When a reduction in personnel becomes necessary, crewmembers active​

on the NetJets Aviation, Inc. Pilot Seniority List (?Seniority List?) will be furloughed​

in inverse seniority order. Management pilots on the Seniority List​

are subject to furlough as set forth in subsection 7.10 of this Agreement.​

New crewmembers will not be hired while crewmembers on the Seniority​

List are furloughed. A furloughed crewmember will continue to accrue seniority​

for the duration of the furlough. Each crewmember to be furloughed​

will be notified in writing of the furlough and an estimate of the probable duration​

thereof at his last filed address. Crewmembers to be furloughed will​

be given two (2) weeks notice, or two (2) weeks pay in lieu of such notice.​

Prior to giving crewmembers notice under this paragraph, the Company​

will provide the Union with the layoff list and a current Seniority List. However,​

should the furlough constitute a ?mass layoff? under the Worker Adjustment​

and Retraining Notification ?WARN? Act, crewmembers to be​

furloughed will receive sixty (60) days notice. Nothing herein will waive or​

limit crewmembers? rights under the WARN Act.​

.​

"NOTWITHSTANDING 7.1"​

Why is this in section 7.7 if the intention was not to let furloughed pilots continue to defer? The language is so clear and calculated.​

There is only ONE (1) place in the entire 391 page document (NJA CBA) are the words " IT IS AGREED AND UNDERSTOOD" written.... secton 7.7 RECALL/DEFERRAL.... The people that are claiming a 180 degree opposite stance on contractual language have written "it is agreed to and understood" in the language that they are claiming is invalid because of intent.... WHAT DOES "IT IS AGREED TO AND UNDERSTOOD" MEAN?​

Let it be known, there are NO interpretive transcripts, negotiator notes, recordings, drawings, or any sort of evidence to support NJASAP and NJA's joint "re-interpretation" and illegal rewriting of the contract to illegally terminate pilots the way they are.

NJASAP is basing their enforcement of illegal terminations on the memory of a single man that negotiated this section of the contract 9 years ago, when self admittedly they never thought a furlough would happen.

 

[rajflyboy]

If you get the call and say no

That sounds like a personal issue and choice

Not a Netjets or Union issue

 

[Traderd]

From an outsider for sure, but this is a curious event.

Does the union somehow benefit from the termination of pilots on a current furlough? The company?

Just trying to understand why either entity cares if a recall is bypassed or accepted by a furloughed pilot. Must be a cost/savings/revenue item of some sort somewhere.

 

[Willy21]

This is just my opinion, this is not I agree or disagree with what is going on.

NetJets is short on crews and needs to get the hiring spooled up. They want to return the furloughed pilots first and then move onto new hires. The union doesn't benefit from removing people from the seniority list. I want all of the furloughed pilots that want to come back returned to the line ASAP.

 

[t-bone]

From an outsider for sure, but this is a curious event.

Does the union somehow benefit from the termination of pilots on a current furlough? The company?

Just trying to understand why either entity cares if a recall is bypassed or accepted by a furloughed pilot. Must be a cost/savings/revenue item of some sort somewhere.

Perhaps it's just that simple...for every class of new-hires at 1st year pay, the company clears off an equal number, or greater, of potential returnees that would come in at year 6/7/8 pay. Easier to budget when you know exactly where payroll will be in the next few years...

 

[Traderd]

Perhaps it's just that simple...for every class of new-hires at 1st year pay, the company clears off an equal number, or greater, of potential returnees that would come in at year 6/7/8 pay. Easier to budget when you know exactly where payroll will be in the next few years...

Makes sense from the company side. I can see that; first year pay vs some seniority equals a lower cost employee. Removes some variables regarding future labor costs.

So, a class filled with new hires would result in lower union dues as well. Perhaps the union likes the idea of senior guys being pushed back onto the line for that reason?

 

[JungleJett]

People...let the legal system work this out. The most vocal groups are those who feel they are being harmed and two PIC's.

For all you furloughees and recent recalls, MP wants you to know that since you have been gone, he has worked really really hard..and been paid for it. What you have or have not been doing while on furlough does not matter any longer. Time for you to get back to work, wear some red, and toe the line. What you think are your rights do not matter...there are bigger fish to fry. And if you see MP, make sure you thank him...he really wants to hear that from you.