NetJets Union Disaster Unfolding

[imacdog]

If that is the intent of the language, then why is it only just now being interpreted this way? Why have pilots been given other interpretations? This won't be the only thing that the union has F'd up regarding the furlough, by a long shot.

 

[Hawkered]

To both of the above, you do realize this issue does not affect me personally, right? Yet I still expect the union to fight for the rights of all pilots covered under our contract. They simply can't choose which sections to enforce - it's all or nothing. All laughable mentions of "sacrafice" have exactly zero bearing on the union's responsibility to the rights of its members.

Right now, I'm regretting participating in the furlough mitigation measures, donating to NJFF and the 495 Christmas fund!!

Don't let the door hit you in the ass!!

 

[T-1GUY]

The writing has been on the wall that sometime between the fall and spring the recalls would happen and the list would be completed. Is a six month window really that hard to work with? You have had years to have a plan in place whether you were going to go back or leave. I feel for you that it came sooner than you planned, but sh$t happens in life. Make a decision based on the information at hand, and live with it. Life is never fair.

 

[imacdog]

Right now, I'm regretting participating in the furlough mitigation measures, donating to NJFF and the 495 Christmas fund!!

Don't let the door hit you in the ass!!

Yeah damn those guys who should be protected under our contract. Why would the door hit me on the ass?

 

[imacdog]

The writing has been on the wall that sometime between the fall and spring the recalls would happen and the list would be completed. Is a six month window really that hard to work with? You have had years to have a plan in place whether you were going to go back or leave. I feel for you that it came sooner than you planned, but sh$t happens in life. Make a decision based on the information at hand, and live with it. Life is never fair.

Funny, at the real career destinations, those furloughees got to defer for years on end. Unless you're admitting that we don't have the union solidarity that the real carriers have?

 

[realityman]

Yeah damn those guys who should be protected under our contract. Why would the door hit me on the ass?

Are they getting their jobs back? With continuous accrual on the seniority list and at the corresponding year of pay that their seniority allows for?

Then I'd say they've had great protection under the contract.

They're coming back at a pay level five years more than when they left. How does that compare with other career carriers?

Like I said, I abhor the whole "intent" thing when interpreting the contract. The average line pilot, including the furloughed pilots, don't have access to the interpretive transcripts and such. We only have what's written to go on. So yes, I get it. I've had issue with it too. Just write the darn contract so it says what it means! You'd think it wouldn't be that hard.

However, in the end, that stuff DOES count, no matter how we hate it. I'm not saying the furloughed pilots ever have to like it. I doubt they will. But legal interpretations that go against what they believe doesn't mean the union is screwing them.

But hey, if they want to file a lawsuit only to find out what they've already been told, and creating division and rancor along the way during a critical time for us, then I guess there'll be no stopping them.

 

[dime line]

The writing has been on the wall that sometime between the fall and spring the recalls would happen and the list would be completed. Is a six month window really that hard to work with? You have had years to have a plan in place whether you were going to go back or leave. I feel for you that it came sooner than you planned, but sh$t happens in life. Make a decision based on the information at hand, and live with it. Life is never fair.

Spoken like a true Military man, I got mine.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Analyzing/interpreting individual pieces of the CBA cannot be excluded from other areas of the CBA or they lose the context in which they were written. While it would be nice to have "forever recall" privileges, the Company would have never allowed that to be written into the contract. As long as pilots are on furlough, the Company loses the flexibility they bargained for in 1.5(C)(4) which is a key scope provision for NJASAP pilots and a key flexibility provision for the Company business model after a furlough is over.

The bargaining trade for a lack of lengthy recall time window was probably both seniority and longevity accrual but you will have to ask M.L. or B.O. about that though since they were in charge at the time.

 

[acaTerry]

Spoken like a true Military man, I got mine.

Nope. As a rule, military types don't have the "I got mine" mentality....they are more of the lines of "You get what you earn and prepare for" mind set. If you take that as a bad thing, perhaps you were an Obama voter type and just want everyone else to take care of you. We've all been sh1t on in life and in aviation. And we get on with it. Dust yourself off and plug along.

 

[BentOver]

Are they getting their jobs back? With continuous accrual on the seniority list and at the corresponding year of pay that their seniority allows for?pretty much standard stuff

Then I'd say they've had great protection under the contract.

They're coming back at a pay level five years more than when they left. How does that compare with other career carriers?pretty much average, NJaSAP isn't special in that regard..except at career carriers the pay bump is higher

Like I said, I abhor the whole "intent" thing when interpreting the contract. The average line pilot, including the furloughed pilots, don't have access to the interpretive transcripts and such. We only have what's written to go on. So yes, I get it. I've had issue with it too. Just write the darn contract so it says what it means! You'd think it wouldn't be that hard.

However, in the end, that stuff DOES count, no matter how we hate it. I'm not saying the furloughed pilots ever have to like it. I doubt they will. But legal interpretations that go against what they believe doesn't mean the union is screwing them.

But hey, if they want to file a lawsuit only to find out what they've already been told, and creating division and rancor along the way during a critical time for us, then I guess there'll be no stopping them.

Funny, before recall, pilots at NJA have no problem sueing, walking picket lines etc... Feeling they have been wronged by the company..

Now some furloughees wish to express their displeasure and they are azzholes for doing it....??

Now there is not only the pre and post '05 pilots.. There are furloughed and non furloughed pilots....

 

[Willy21]

You are incorrect Bent, seniority accrual is standard but longevity is not. That is one thing the AA/Airways pilots are fighting for as we speak.

The only people making a line in the sand over furloughed and not furloughed pilots are a few furloughed pilots. It started by them pushing the older pilots to take the early out in '09 so they could stay. Now it's I want to come back on my terms only. Why should things change? In the end there is nothing anybody can do to make these few individuals happy. As you so eloquently said in another thread, "Them da breaks."

 

[jegermeister]

"Why is NJASAP trying to force furloughed pilots who have other job obligations to come back to a company that is extremely volatile, where hostages are being taken day by day?"

That's the crux of your fear, isn't it? Afraid to come join the fight? Come and fight, or don't, your choice. Nobody is forcing you, only you have the decision to make. But don't blame us that are there, fighting daily for a better life, that you hope to enjoy after the war is over.

Fear? Fear is watching the economy crumble just after you gave up a seniority number to go to bottom of another list. Fear is counting the bills just before Christmas knowing that you're out of work in January. Fear is trying to get a job when the first question in the interview is "do you have recall rights?".

I was lucky. It only took me two months to find a job. A job that pays less than I made at NJ. Now I fly as PIC on two different types (no dispatch, no union protection, no meteorologist). I was lucky I didn't lose my home. I was lucky I didn't go bankrupt. I was lucky my marriage survived. Many of the other furloughed guys weren't as lucky.

I guess I'm one of those guys asking for a hand out now. I owe 30k for a training contract for the job I'm at now. I signed a three year training contract that didn't start to pro-rate until after the first year. When I signed it, the general wisdom that a recall was far more than three years. I'd like to go back to NJ. Despite the current atmosphere, I think it's a better place than where I am now. I just need another year to work off my contract.

I'm not alone. There are plenty in my situation. If a few guys want to play the system, it shouldn't damn the folks who need the contract to do what it says it will. We're not asking for special treatment. The language is very clear as to how a recall should be performed. If it wasn't the intent of those who wrote it. They shouldn't have written it. With all of the posturing, this should have been an easy fight to pick with the company.

That is my peace. I went there because of the contract and mission. I made a lot friends that I flew with and look forward to joining them in defense of NJ.

 

[pilotyip]

Nope. As a rule, military types don't have the "I got mine" mentality....they are more of the lines of "You get what you earn and prepare for" mind set. If you take that as a bad thing, perhaps you were an Obama voter type and just want everyone else to take care of you. We've all been sh1t on in life and in aviation. And we get on with it. Dust yourself off and plug along.

That is why it is called the service, it is about what you can give and not what you can take. And if you have not been there it is difficult to understand.

 

[realityman]

Bent,

Willy hit the seniority thing for me. So I'll let that go.

Now, as to the rest, of you can't see the difference between the union sueing the company because they are BREAKING THE LAW in an attempt to bring us down, and some furloughed pilots sueing the union over a contract interpretation simply because they don't like what they were told, even if it's right, and doing a lot of damage to the very union that's trying to gain large improvements for EVERYBODY, then I guess we have nothing else to discuss.

If they actually do file a DFR lawsuit, the damage done will far exceed any "win" they hope to get out of it.

Puts them in a sucky position. But that's life.

 

[platinum750]

Life is as Netjets will be gone in 6 months. WB has had enough. BNSF is sucking more cash now and this niche thing as netjets will be an easy hole to fill.