NetJets Union Disaster Unfolding

[n7715x]

The NetJets union is doing a deal with the company to terminate large groups of the furloughed pilots at once, totally out of agreement with the contract. The contract says that when recalls happen, when they get to the bottom of the list, the most junior pilot on furlough has to accept recall or be terminated from the seniority list. That is what the union has told us all long to expect. Then, out of nowhere, a few months ago, they had a "reinterpretation" of the recall rights, where they now say they will allow the company to terminate entire class sizes of furloughed pilots for each recall now that they've gotten to the bottom of the list. Why? This means if the company sends out notices for a 30-pilot class, and everyone defers, they will allow the company to terminate the 30 most junior pilots...not the single most junior pilot as the contract clearly states. It looks like this thing is going to result in a DFR lawsuit if it's allowed to continue...

Hansell has threatened recently to stop growth and furlough again if NJASAP doesn't take his contract proposal. Every NetJets pilot needs to be aware that their own union is totally selling out their recall rights. NJASAP needs to be challenged from every angle about why they are doing this. Is it hoping for negotiating capital for ridding the company of the obligation to take furloughed pilots back at their original pay longevity? Who knows. This needs to be brought out for everyone to see. They've been hiding it now for months. This past week, NetJets issued the 14 most most junior pilots "non-deferrable" recall notices...that term exists nowhere in the CBA. This is actually happening. Totally unsat.

The contract is crystal clear. When they get to the bottom of the list, the most junior pilot returns or is terminated, and any unfilled vacancies on each recall are staffed with new hires. Each time there are vacancies, they offer them to furloughed pilots, the most junior returns or is terminated, and any unfilled vacancies are staffed with new hires. This process repeats until the last furloughed pilot is gone. Pretty simple. Why is NJASAP decimating the furlough and recall language and opening themselves to a DFR suit? Why aren't more people talking about this? Why is NJASAP trying to force furloughed pilots who have other job obligations to come back to a company that is extremely volatile, where hostages are being taken day by day? Who's idea was this? What's going on with NJASAP? This is "unity"?

 

[T-1GUY]

I have been reading that they would be through all the recalls and be hiring off the street by the summer time, at least this is the general concensus. Hansell's threats are empty, another furlough would kill the company right now. I hope it works out for you. I personally would move on to another company, but that is just one opinion. The time is ripe to find a better pilot position.

 

[ghostrider64]

"Why is NJASAP trying to force furloughed pilots who have other job obligations to come back to a company that is extremely volatile, where hostages are being taken day by day?"

That's the crux of your fear, isn't it? Afraid to come join the fight? Come and fight, or don't, your choice. Nobody is forcing you, only you have the decision to make. But don't blame us that are there, fighting daily for a better life, that you hope to enjoy after the war is over.

 

[BentOver]

"Why is NJASAP trying to force furloughed pilots who have other job obligations to come back to a company that is extremely volatile, where hostages are being taken day by day?"

That's the crux of your fear, isn't it? Afraid to come join the fight? Come and fight, or don't, your choice. Nobody is forcing you, only you have the decision to make. But don't blame us that are there, fighting daily for a better life, that you hope to enjoy after the war is over.[/QUOTE

Hold on my popcorn is still popping

 

[imacdog]

The contract is very clear. It is quite disturbing that the union is not fighting for all members that the contract applies to. It is also sad to see other members of the union not caring about the rights afforded by the contract' as well. Never has there been a time that I have been more convinced that the majority of NJASAP members are "all about MEEEEEEEE!".

 

[realityman]

The contract is very clear. It is quite disturbing that the union is not fighting for all members that the contract applies to. It is also sad to see other members of the union not caring about the rights afforded by the contract' as well. Never has there been a time that I have been more convinced that the majority of NJASAP members are "all about MEEEEEEEE!".

You're kidding, right?

How many guys and gals gave up literally THOUSANDS of dollars before the furlough during the voluntary measures to try to keep everyone on property?

How many agreed to doing zero extended days while we had folks on furlough?

How many have argued the furloughed should have access to the message boards during their time on furlough?

How many donated to the NJFF knowing that money was available to help the furloughed pilots?

How many donated every year that we had the Christmas fund for the furloughed pilots' kids?

The list goes on. I realize the answer to each of these questions is not "everyone". That's a shame. But this is most definitely not a selfish union.

Now there's an interpretation the furloughed don't like and all of a sudden they've been terribly wronged by the union?

For the record, I don't agree with the interpretation either. However, given the integrity and intensity of our new leadership, I have no reason to believe the new interpretation is incorrect no matter how much I don't like it.

In the end, the furloughed pilots are being offered their jobs back, something they've been sorely waiting for, and they're now upset they can't stay away for longer. I don't get it. While I don't like the interpretation, I am far more displeased with the thought of furloughed pilots sitting out this fight and only returning after everything is settled. To me, that's just as bad as the folks who have stayed active the whole time but who are content to sit on the sidelines and let others do the hard work in this contract fight, then reap the rewards.

In addition, our contract allows the furloughed pilots to continue to accrue seniority while on furlough. I can't even begin to comprehend the division in our ranks caused if furloughed pilots defer for many years while the company hires off the street to meet demand, then the furloughed come back and can claim better seniority than a group that may have been actually on property and working longer than the furloughed pilots had. It's crazy, and probably also not the intent of how that section was written.

Jeez! They've got their jobs back and they want to sue the union for the ability to not come back!

Win or lose, it will be incredibly damaging to the union. Just for starters, it's going to create a huge division amongst us just when we're finally showing some serious solidarity. Thanks for helping the company out on that one! Furthermore, it'll be self-defeating in the long run because doing so is going to make a lot of people disinclined to work for large improvements in the CBA for the junior folks (who in this case will fit nicely into one of Yip's "minority" categories) and also a lot less likely to help out again if we ever encounter something similar to the voluntary measures we did before.

It's very unfortunate that this interpretation comes at a time of contentious negotiations, but this would be one that we're better off letting go of rather than pursuing. Who is really going to "win" with this? You've got your job back. If you don't want it then pass. Otherwise, we've got a huge battle ahead of us and we need to be unified to win. It's your choice.

 

[Willy21]

First, over the last 5 years every NetJets pilot, active or furloughed, has put some skin in the game. Some more than others. With that being said, in some ways it is about "me" and improving my quality of life. I would like to get a little relative seniority and be able to hold a schedule, vacation, PTO day, aircraft bid and maybe someday an upgrade that only comes with seniority. The furloughed pilots have put a lot of skin in the game, but they are not alone in their sacrifices.

Second, the contract has huge holes everywhere. Right now the hole that matters most to the pilots on furlough is the not so clear recall language. To the pilots that have been terminated, no recall rights there, it's something else that might get their job back. Name a section of the contract and I bet you can find somebody that is fired up about it because they are not getting the answers they want from NJASAP. By arguing that "the majority of NJASAP members are 'all about MEEEEEEEE!'," you are showing that you fit right in because it's all about you and your issue. We all have issues with the contract and current situation that we want fixed, it's important to everyone.

In the end it's about "us" and are we going to allow people to divide us into voting blocks or do we choose to understand that we all have issues with the contract that can only be fixed together. It is a fact the NetJets is short on crews. We need all of the furloughed pilots back ASAP. If your current job is better than NetJets, don't come back. If it isn't, I hope to see you on the line soon. It's time to move on.

 

[imacdog]

To both of the above, you do realize this issue does not affect me personally, right? Yet I still expect the union to fight for the rights of all pilots covered under our contract. They simply can't choose which sections to enforce - it's all or nothing. All laughable mentions of "sacrafice" have exactly zero bearing on the union's responsibility to the rights of its members.

 

[BentOver]

Leave it to some of the fine members of NJASAP to turn a simple and industry standard practice of bypassing recall (due to any number of situations) into a mess.

Big deal, you are in a contract battle... So now you are going to begrudge a furloughee that wants to keep NJA in his back pocket for a while because maybe he has something going on that is Infinitely better than going back to the bottom of a list and maybe stuck in a Phenom for 5+ years....

I can see if the company was trying to mis-interpret language to suit themselves and the union had no immediate recourse but to grieve it....happens all the time...

But to blame a guy for playing the field a bit and then saying he should be there to fight the fight....please...get over yourselves..

Any and all furloughees, during the Great Recession, have every right to work the system to their advantage..

God I am glad I don't have to sit in TEB or HPN with some of you

 

[pilotyip]

All laughable mentions of "sacrafice" have exactly zero bearing on the union's responsibility to the rights of its members.

The majority will define what "sacrifice" is the it sacrifice of looking out for yourself first to ensure the betterment of everyone or is it sacrifice of the lower end of the list to protect their personal goals. Time will tell.

 

[ghostrider64]

How about this...without that crappy union, you'd have been fired outright, then you wouldn't have a choice to make. Don't believe me, ask the NJE guys how that worked out for them.

 

[realityman]

To both of the above, you do realize this issue does not affect me personally, right? Yet I still expect the union to fight for the rights of all pilots covered under our contract. They simply can't choose which sections to enforce - it's all or nothing. All laughable mentions of "sacrafice" have exactly zero bearing on the union's responsibility to the rights of its members.

Yes, I understand exactly what you're saying. It doesn't change anything.

Do you agree tht our current union leadership is doing a great job fighting the company? Have they shown any fear about taking on the company in every area possible?

My own answer to those questions is a resounding yes! Therefore, if our current union leadership says they've looked at it, including legal interpretations from our attornies as well as talking to the person who actually negotiated that section to determine intent, then I am forced to believe them, no matter how much I don't like the interpretation.

They don't feel they have a credible case against the company because the current interpretation is sound, even if it's not what we want to hear.

I personally hate all this "intent" stuff. Cripes, just write the contract in clear terms and say it, in black and white, exactly what's meant! How hard is that? The furloughed pilots aren't the only ones who have had to deal with this "intent" crap! I've been burned by it too. Sucks, but it just makes me resolved to fix it in the next CBA.

Now some furloughed pilots are talking about sueing the union over it? Sueing the union so they don't have to come back?! You know what? F**k them! Our own pilots are going to attack the union, distracting them from the fight at hand, wasting union resources, creating division amongst the pilot group, and generally being ungrateful because they don't agree with an interpretation our leaders, attorneys, and people who actually negotiated the section say is correct?! What a crock!

If anyone needs to get over themselves, it's the furloughed pilots. They're willing to destroy our hard-won solidarity over a chance to decline coming back to a job they say they've been wanting to get back to! It's insane! And worst of all, it's self-destructive because weakening the union means lessening our chances of winning the contract battle which means they may not see the gains they hope to achieve.

Like I said, union leadership didn't randomly decide they weren't going to fight the company on this issue. Everyone has looked at it and decided they have no legal standing to fight it. Sometimes it happens. A lawsuit won't change that. Why don't they sue the company instead?

Good luck with all that. By the way, if they sue the union and lose, will there be an apology forthcoming from the furloughed pilots for wasting union resources and solidarity so they can find out what they've been told all along?

Interesting times indeed!

 

[imacdog]

How about this...without that crappy union, you'd have been fired outright, then you wouldn't have a choice to make. Don't believe me, ask the NJE guys how that worked out for them.

So it's okay then for the union to disregard the contract?

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

.......The contract is crystal clear. When they get to the bottom of the list, the most junior pilot returns or is terminated, and any unfilled vacancies on each recall are staffed with new hires. Each time there are vacancies, they offer them to furloughed pilots, the most junior returns or is terminated, and any unfilled vacancies are staffed with new hires. This process repeats until the last furloughed pilot is gone. Pretty simple. Why is NJASAP decimating the furlough and recall language and opening themselves to a DFR suit? Why aren't more people talking about this? Why is NJASAP trying to force furloughed pilots who have other job obligations to come back to a company that is extremely volatile, where hostages are being taken day by day? Who's idea was this? What's going on with NJASAP? This is "unity"?

Here is the language so that others can play along too. The language seems virtually the same between the 05 and the 07 agreements. What matters is not want line pilots think the language says or want it to say. What matters is what was negotiated between the Company and the Union - that is what an arbitrator will say.

If the language is in question and the parties cannot agree on the intent of the language, then the parties review the Transcripts and the Bargaining Notes during the grievance/system board/arbitration process.

Is there dispute between the Company and the Union on the intent of this language after consulting the negotiators (M.O. for the Company and M.L. from the Union) for 2005 CBA?

If both the Company and the Union agree on the intent of what they negotiated, then there is no dispute and life goes on. DFR suit is an idle threat and will cost the claimants a lot of money. DFR suit wins are a rarity and I am sure NJASAP legal is not concerned about it other than the dues money that will be spent in the process.

One has to wonder if the goal is to get the language changed to something other than was negotiated or deflect the successes of NJASAP and spawn disunity.

7.7 Recall Deferral
A Crewmember on furlough may defer recall, provided there is a more junior Crewmember on furlough on the date the recall notice is sent. If a crewmember is the most junior Crewmember on furlough on the date the recall notice is sent and the Crewmember does not accept recall, he shall be immediately terminated and removed from the seniority list. If a Crewmember desires to defer recall and is eligible to do so, the Crewmember shall notify Company according to Section 7.4 of this Agreement. Failure to give notice pursuant to Section 7.4 shall result in immediate termination and removal from the seniority list. Notwithstanding Section 7.1, the Company may hire new pilot(s) when a furloughed pilot(s) has deferred recall, provided all furloughed pilots, including pilots who have deferred recall, shall be offered the opportunity to fill any future vacancy prior to hiring new pilots. It is agreed and understood that pilots who have deferred recall shall have recall rights to future vacancies only.

7.7 Recall Deferral
A crewmember on furlough may defer recall, provided there is a more junior crewmember on furlough on the date the recall notice is sent. If a crewmember is the most junior crewmember on furlough on the date the recall notice is sent and the crewmember does not accept the recall, he will be immediately terminated and removed from the Seniority List. If a crewmember desires to defer recall and is eligible to do so, the crewmember will notify the Company according to subsection 7.4 of this Agreement. Failure to give notice pursuant to subsection 7.4 will result in immediate termination and removal from the Seniority List. Notwithstanding subsection 7.1, the Company may hire new crewmember(s) when a furloughed crewmember has deferred recall, provided all furloughed crewmembers, including crewmembers who have deferred the recall, will be offered the opportunity to fill any future vacancy prior to hiring new crewmembers. It is agreed and understood that crewmembers who have deferred the recall will have recall rights to future vacancies only.

 

[realityman]

So it's okay then for the union to disregard the contract?

No, of course not.

But in this case, everyone on the union side to include leadership, legal, and the person who negotiated that section all agree that it's being followed properly.

The furloughed pilots obviously don't agree. But like I said, this is a union leadership I trust, so much as I don't like it I have to concede they may be right.

If they aren't then I will make a public apology.

 

[imacdog]

If that is the intent of the language, then why is it only just now being interpreted this way? Why have pilots been given other interpretations? This won't be the only thing that the union has F'd up regarding the furlough, by a long shot.

 

[Hawkered]

To both of the above, you do realize this issue does not affect me personally, right? Yet I still expect the union to fight for the rights of all pilots covered under our contract. They simply can't choose which sections to enforce - it's all or nothing. All laughable mentions of "sacrafice" have exactly zero bearing on the union's responsibility to the rights of its members.

Right now, I'm regretting participating in the furlough mitigation measures, donating to NJFF and the 495 Christmas fund!!

Don't let the door hit you in the ass!!

 

[T-1GUY]

The writing has been on the wall that sometime between the fall and spring the recalls would happen and the list would be completed. Is a six month window really that hard to work with? You have had years to have a plan in place whether you were going to go back or leave. I feel for you that it came sooner than you planned, but sh$t happens in life. Make a decision based on the information at hand, and live with it. Life is never fair.

 

[imacdog]

Right now, I'm regretting participating in the furlough mitigation measures, donating to NJFF and the 495 Christmas fund!!

Don't let the door hit you in the ass!!

Yeah damn those guys who should be protected under our contract. Why would the door hit me on the ass?

 

[imacdog]

The writing has been on the wall that sometime between the fall and spring the recalls would happen and the list would be completed. Is a six month window really that hard to work with? You have had years to have a plan in place whether you were going to go back or leave. I feel for you that it came sooner than you planned, but sh$t happens in life. Make a decision based on the information at hand, and live with it. Life is never fair.

Funny, at the real career destinations, those furloughees got to defer for years on end. Unless you're admitting that we don't have the union solidarity that the real carriers have?