NetJets Pilots to Picket Meeting of Berkshire Hathaway Shareholders

[On Your Six]

FYI....in the Part 135 world, C-X PIC's are making 75-80K. I know a 5th year NJA C-X Captain, he made over 65K last year, only worked 14 days a month, and had June - August off as vacation (well, I think he worked 2 tours in the 3 months).

Compare this schedule and pay with a Part 135 pilot, on-call 365/7 days a week with 2-3 weeks vacation per year, making 80K. NetJets QOL/pay doesn't look too bad!

Yes, there are a few Part 91 midsize aircraft operators that pay their pilots lots of $$$ and only fly 400 hrs a year, however, using them as a benchmark for your payscale and QOL is absurd.

As I have mentioned on this board many times, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. You want to be paid similar to all the other corporate pilots, then I would suggest that your pilot group give up over half of your "hard days off"....maybe then Warren will give you the pay you are DEMANDING!

Hmmmmmm, you sound like NJA management to me.... Most people who know NJA pilots would agree that they are worked hard on the road and that they are not paid well compared to their Part 91 peers. Why would a pilot debate this and suggest the NJA pilots are not worthy of an increase after YEARS AND YEARS OF NEGOTIATIONS? Sounds fishy to me....

I personally know a Part 91 Citation X Captain based in the Northeast who flies maybe 300 hours per year and he makes about $95K with very few ancillary duties. He also has great schedules with few RONs - just a lot of day trips up and down the coast. Sure, that's not normal by any means, but he is paid a lot more to fly the same aircraft for far fewer hours... Your assertion that a comparison is "absurd" is not justifiable if you compare the same aircraft type with roughly the same number of flight hours - even with beeper hours included.

 

[slowto250]

Not to be argumentative, but Flight Options new fleet consists of the Hawker 400, the Hawker 800, the Citation X, and the WSCoD.

And what's up with the "El Chupacabra"? That means "goat sucker" in Spanish.

GV

Ahhh....but something gets lost in the translation. A legendary and some say mythical beast, not unlike Sasquatch or the Yeti. Supposedly it killed and slaughtered livestock for many years, and was feared by generations of native people.

Doesn't scare me, though.

But, my ex-wife's divorce lawyer ? That's a different story.

 

[Grizz]

Hmmmmmm, you sound like NJA management to me....

Bingo Six. Everytime sometime goes not according to the NJA plan, all the root weevils pop-up on this board and try to explain how the pilots at NetJets are:

1) Outrageous in their demands
2) Totally ineffective in their plans
3) Doomed to failure

I only wish that the mediators of this message board would flip the switch in the admin control panel that would allow everyone to see the IP addresses of these clowns. It'd be pretty funny to see all the ones owned by Netjets. Mark - If you're reading this thread, please do that for us. I'd love to point out all the "undercover" folks on here.

The operation out in OMA was first-rate. We only had about 250-300 pilots company-wide that had this weekend off because of our schedules. Over 70 of them showed up in OMA! Considering that everyone there had to get out there on their own and the fact that most of us can't just run over to the airport and jumpseat - it's a pretty amazing feat. It did what it was supposed to do. Now we wait to see what direction the next couple of negotiation sessions take and go from there.

 

[netjetwife]

Griz, it was a pleasure to meet you face to face! You can now laugh, as I do, at the posts suggesting that I sit around and eat "bon bons" or "twinkies" all day while ignoring my children. I'm sorry that I didn't get to spend more time with the pilots, but taking the kids to the zoo (my 2 + 2 more) did allow another wife to drive a van on Saturday. Our personal arrangement was an analogy of the behind the scenes work that it takes to put a pilot out on the line. Those who insist on counting only those they saw walking, are making a grave mistake in using that to judge the level of determination that exists among the NJ pilots/families.

I have always maintained that the NJ fight for fairness is a family affair. I'm glad that those in charge of the event feel the same way. I enjoyed meeting you in person. My thanks, also, to the 2 NJ pilots that drove the van which I rode on to OMA. It was a pleasure guys.

To all of you who walked the line, it was a fine beginning. You made us proud! I urge those who read this board to remember that it WAS a start and DID accomplish its goal of raising awareness and showing the resolve of the pilotforce.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

A few observations I would like to bring to everyone's attention. First to beat this safety nail for the last time for those of you that obviously do not understand. Fractionals exist because of their safety records. PERIOD. The SAFE pilots that haven't already left WILL leave the fractional industry if we don't make this life worth living. A 1500 hour newbee to Aspen is more likely to carve a groove in the mountain than the guy that knows how to calculate second segment climb and knows what NA means.

 

[netjetwife]

......The safety argument is tired. Certainly you guys are not going to be less safe without a pay raise. I mean, who is always the first person to the accident site: the PILOT. So, the pay me more and I will be safer argument really does not hold water. ........

Grim Reaper, it seems to me that you are misunderstanding the safety argument. It actually goes like this---you get what you pay for, a simple concept well recognized by those with the funds to afford the best. Experienced pilots will not remain at a company that refuses to pay them the going rate for their labor and expertise. The owners DO care about safety and DO expect to be flown by very experienced pilots. They will not be interested in having the level of experience that such low wages will buy. Successful business people know that there are really only two options--pay salaries that retain the best workers or lower standards. When it comes to their own safety and that of their family's, what do you think the owners will tell the company to do??

 

[Rubber Ducky]

Second... Mission accomplished. What some see as a lack of media coverage, I interpret as victory. The shareholders of BH OWN the media. They have instructed their networks to not air this story because they are embarassed; and once aired they would be even more humiliated. The lack of media coverage indicates that you have their undivided attention. Now tell them what you need to be happy! ASAP has the con!!!!!!!

 

[miles otoole]

Experienced pilots will not remain at a company that refuses to pay them the going rate for their labor and expertise.

Supply and demand. Problem is, management knows that pilots have few options. There's an endless supply of qualified pilots to take care of attrition.

 

[FlyinFife]

Give the pilots a HARUMPH!

Those who insist on counting only those they saw walking, are making a grave mistake in using that to judge the level of determination that exists among the NJ pilots/families.

By mentioning that I only saw a "limited" amount of pilots walking no way implies that I don't think you all are not dedicated. Nor am I assuming that there isn't an army of support personnel making it possible for those pilots to have been walking in the first place.

I wish I would have had an opportunity to stop and talk, unfortunately I had my behind planted in the seat of a fuel truck for a majority of the day. But, I hope you all enjoyed your stay in Omaha - a city founded in 1854 on the principles of sticking it to the little guy. The zoo is first rate and we have two tall buildings. Did anyone have a chance to go visit the Strategic Air and Space Museum? We have other stuff, but I must spend my mental energies on writing a paper rather than trying to think of the various nuances of this fair city.

 

[x402]

If punctuation is such a concern for you, perhaps you should have become an English Teacher instead. You'd probably be making more money than you are now as a pilot.

It wasn't punctuation, it was..........neutral partisan. eeeeeek

 

[FlyinFife]

It wasn't punctuation, it was..........neutral partisan. eeeeeek

Well, if you're going to be splitting hairs like that. If one takes the literal definition of "partisan", then yes the phrase "neutral partisan" would be a bit of an oximoron. I suppose though, there is nothing wrong with strongly adhearing to no party, faction, cause, or person in a "neutral" sort of way.

 

[netjetwife]

James, the comment that you quoted from my post was not aimed particularly at you. It was intended as a warning for those that may be guilty of possessing that attitude. Thanks for your support. Your city is, indeed, quite fair and the zoo is awesome. I knew of the SAC museum and other worthwhile places to visit, but alas we didn't have the time.

Another word of warning, if I may. (This is for all who read this board.) Please don't try to talk to any NJ pilots that you (may in the future) see on a picket line. They aren't out there to chat. A big thumbs up from the sidelines, however, will be noticed and appreciated.

 

[TonyC]

I'm sorry that I didn't get to spend more time with the pilots, but taking the kids to the zoo (my 2 + 2 more) did allow another wife to drive a van on Saturday.

Is not the Henry Doorly Zoo about the best zoo on earth!?!? As I recall, it's the best thing OMA has going for it!

Which did you like best, the rain forest or the aquarium?




.

 

[netjetwife]

Of those two, I'd have to say the jungle. But the swamp and the caves were also excellent--very realistic. In fact, I told the pilots that it was more of an adventure than just a trip to a zoo. Keep in mind that I was escorting four young children and still managed to have a great time. I liked the historical areas of the city, too.

 

[TonyC]

Keep in mind that I was escorting four young children and still managed to have a great time.

I understand how that goes. We had five kids by the time we left Omaha. I spent several days at the zoo with the kids while Mom was finishing nursing school. It was great fun.

Caves? Swamps? hmmmm I guess it's been a few years since I was there. Considering that my then first-grader is about to graduate from High School... my, how time flies.






.

 

[Grizz]

Griz, it was a pleasure to meet you face to face! You can now laugh, as I do, at the posts suggesting that I sit around and eat "bon bons" or "twinkies" all day while ignoring my children. I'm sorry that I didn't get to spend more time with the pilots, but taking the kids to the zoo (my 2 + 2 more) did allow another wife to drive a van on Saturday.

With that group of active ones, there's no way you have time to sit around. As was posted and seconded on our board, we couldn't have made it work this weekend without the efforts of the wives. That included your efforts so that others were free to drive. Check your PMs for a more personal note.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Not to be argumentative, but Flight Options new fleet consists of the Hawker 400, the Hawker 800, the Citation X, and the WSCoD.
GV

The last I knew FLOPS had what 4 X's? And they were all flown by Contract Pilots instead of FLOPS line pilots. Not sure if this changed.

 

[FlyinFife]

James, the comment that you quoted from my post was not aimed particularly at you. It was intended as a warning for those that may be guilty of possessing that attitude. Thanks for your support. Your city is, indeed, quite fair and the zoo is awesome. I knew of the SAC museum and other worthwhile places to visit, but alas we didn't have the time.

Another word of warning, if I may. (This is for all who read this board.) Please don't try to talk to any NJ pilots that you (may in the future) see on a picket line. They aren't out there to chat. A big thumbs up from the sidelines, however, will be noticed and appreciated.

NJW - no problem at all. Was just providing clarification, just in case. Regarding chatting: so noted. Wasn't aware of the "proper formalities" required. I gave a honk and a wave as I drove by, and suppose I shall continue to do so in the future!

 

[netjetwife]

James all the support was noticed by the pilots, you can be sure. I heard about it from the ones I talked to afterwards. Seemingly small gestures often have a big impact.


Tony, your family should visit Omaha again, I think. The zoo has also added a desert under a huge glass dome. Again, very realistic. If you thought you liked the place before, you really should see it now--it's awesome!

Griz, I agree. OMA proved a number of things, including the fact that there is a supporting role the wives/spouses can play and that meeting the children whose lives are affected by the outcome of the NJ Pilots' battle can be a very motivating experience. The children of other professionals have a promising future; the sons and daughters of pilots deserve no less.

 

[falcon20driver]

NetjetWife,


How long has your husband been with Netjets? I recently talked with a Netjets captain and he said the upgrades for the smaller jets were only a couple of years, how much longer is your husband looking at before he is eligible to upgrade in ANY netjet aircraft?

Thanks

 

[Grizz]

Falcon20 -

We recently had a CE-560 Captain bid come out with 16 open slots. The least senior guy who received it has been here about a year. Three or four of the successful bidders have been here less than 2 years. The other 12 have been here 3 years or more.

The reason it went that junior is for 2 reasons. The first was it was a large single bid. Had they released it as 4-6 smaller bids with different training dates, I don't think it would have gone that junior. Some guys just couldn't go to training right now no matter how much they desired the slot.

The second reason is the more compelling. All of the F/Os eligible to bid it that are senior to those guys are already receiving Captain's pay. The only guys that really bid the Ultra were folks looking for a better schedule, ones desiring more PIC time or people in a fleet that is going away - such as the H-1000.

One of the things that the company has expressed a strong desire to correct in the new contract is the ability for F/Os to remain in the right seat and to continue to receive the higher pay. Once we get a new contract, there are going to be 750+ guys that will have to upgrade to continue to receive Captain's pay. Add to that about 150 folks already on property that are F/Os on F/O pay. You'll have 900 pilots that will be bidding to upgrade before anyone new gets enough seniority to successfully bid.

A new pilot starting at NetJets today better count on 5+ years before moving to the left seat. They also better count on living on whatever wages are negotiated for F/Os because the bypass provision is going bye-bye. Current F/O pay starts at 27K and jumps to a whopping 32K by year 5. Keep that in mind if you are applying to NetJets.

 

[CRAWDADDY]

Where were the 300+ picketers that organizers were expecting?

There weren't that many OFF for the 30th and 1st!

 

[falcon20driver]

Thanks for the explanation Grizz, the pilot I talked to didn't mention the FO captain pay ending any time soon, 5 years is an awful long time to live on 30K.

 

[netjetwife]

F20D, we were on FO pay for about 18 months; my husband has been with NJA for 27 months. It's no secret that I have complained bitterly about the low wages and that my husband (along with many others) is working hard as a union volunteer to change the pay scale for all NJ pilots. The FO/FOs joke that they are the poorest of the poor among NJ pilots and it is true! It is completely reasonable for a professional to anticipate raising a family on his/her wages. That so many are forced to supplement their NJ pay with another source of income is totally unacceptable. I, personally, would be shocked to see a contract pass that didn't allow families to end that practice. That said, I would not put my family in a situation where that may be necessary. I strongly advise pilots that are interested in NJ to "wait and see".

From my husband, the exact numbers---

Year 1 2,259 a month $27,108 annually
Year 2 2,364 .............28,368
Year 3 2,469 .............29,628
Year 4 2,574 .............30,888
Year 5 2,680 .............32,160

As you can see, you don't hit 30K until year 4. For these wages you are gone at least HALF the month. I have to laugh, albeit bitterly, at those who post here that the NJ pilots can't fight the company for a fair contract because they have few options. At these wages many jobs are available without spending ANY time away from home.

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS AND SHOULD BE PAID AS SUCH

 

[Hawkered]

Absolutetly agreed! The fact that "flight attendants" who are CSRs and not required by FARs are being paid more is just b%$tt!

 

[netjetwife]

You read my mind! I can't imagine the pilots passing a TA that doesn't put an end to THAT INJUSTICE, as well.

A RISING TIDE SHOULD LIFT ALL BOATS

Nice to see you posting, Hawkered. Tell your wife hello for me!
Netjetwife

 

[IFlyOU]

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS AND SHOULD BE PAID AS SUCH

Couldn't agree more... I'm still paying off my credit card debt!!

FYI: I know a COEX ERJ 145 SIC who has been there for 5 years and is barely forking in 30K...

everywhere you go it sucks. Nature of the beast...

*lives with it*

 

[netjetwife]

I don't think you guys should live with it. I think you should fight it! The NJ pilots are in the best position to do that right now, so it makes sense for them to go first. When they get a good contract, that'll be 2000+ pilot salaries helping to raise the bar. In the meantime, the Options pilots could get organized.....

There clearly needs to be corrections made across the industry. I'm not convinced that upper management deserves their lavish salaries....NJ's Mr. Boisture makes 1.2 MILLION A YEAR, I hear .....while the pilots of many companies are given subpar wages. Corporate greed is common enough in America that none of us should be surprised to see it in aviation.

 

[IFlyOU]

I don't think you guys should live with it. I think you should fight it! The NJ pilots are in the best position to do that right now, so it makes sense for them to go first. When they get a good contract, that'll be 2000+ pilot salaries helping to raise the bar. In the meantime, the Options pilots could get organized.....

There clearly needs to be corrections made across the industry. I'm not convinced that upper management deserves their lavish salaries....NJ's Mr. Boisture makes 1.2 MILLION A YEAR, I hear .....while the pilots of many companies are given subpar wages. Corporate greed is common enough in America that none of us should be surprised to see it in aviation.

*voted for kerry*

 

[h25b]

You read my mind! I can't imagine the pilots passing a TA that doesn't put an end to THAT INJUSTICE, as well.

A RISING TIDE SHOULD LIFT ALL BOATS

Should, probably won't... No contract ever does. Lots of things people want get given up as bargaining chips. The junior guys are the ones that are thrown in front of the train.