NetJets Pilots to Picket Meeting of Berkshire Hathaway Shareholders

[realityman]

Yaak,

Go back and read Netjetwife's last post. She hit the nail on the head. The COMPANY makes those claims in most of their advertising. We go to recurrent sim twice a year. Also, once a year we go to company recurrent, where we review company policies, FAR's, practice removing and exiting the emergency exit from the aircraft, jump in the pool and actually inflate a life raft and life vests and practice survival techniques, actually put a fire out with a fire extinguisher, discuss and review good CRM practices, and quite a long list of other procedures, which I'm pretty sure most corporate flight departments don't do. SO are we better trained? Maybe. Certainly the value of doing these things is debatable, but I gotta tell ya, it's a real eye-opener doing the life raft drills in the pool. Gives a pretty good perspective of what we'll be dealing with if we ever have to ditch in a cold, heaving ocean in the dark. How many times a year does your company make you do this? Still, are we better trained? Again, hard to say. I'd say we train MORE than most corporate operators, but better? Again, maybe. The COMPANY sure likes to brag that we are better trained than corporate or charter. And our argument (well, part of our argument) is that if we're better trained, shouldn't we at least be PAID like the corporate operators whom we're supposedly better trained and safer than?

"At it's foundation, and intrinsic to that salary, is the pilot being available to the company....all the time"

Interesting statment. So, what you're saying, is that after getting out of bed, at say 8:00 AM at home, going about your normal daily routine, and then the boss calls at 6:00 PM and says I need to fly from New York to San Francisco at 9:00 tonight, is a SAFE thing to do? The beauty of Netjets is that we can actually refuse doing this sort of thing without fear of reprisal, courtesy of our union-negotiated contract and union protections. Otherwise, how do you refuse without fear of being terminated? I've never been a big fan of unions, but they do serve a purpose. According to your statement above, it appears you're saying that it's okay to fly fatigued or do something unsafe because you're being paid lots of money to do it. Yes yes, I'm sure you just have a wonderful job where you can refuse any trip you like and not have to worry about your job. Unfortunately, a lot of the corporate and charter world doesn't work like that. I believe there's a Gulfstream-shaped indentation on the side of a mountain near Aspen that proves that point (along with MANY other accidents that have similar themes).
So you're saying that because we are allowed to make good choices that we should be paid less than our corporate counterparts. Obviously you've made up your mind, so discussing this with you is pointless. I just like to get on here every once in a while and make a few points myself.
By the way, prior to Netjets, I flew corporate and charter. I did the 24/7/365 availability thing. I did the non-union thing. I've walked away from jobs too. Netjets is actually a very good job. And our pilots DO deserve good wages. I'm not saying we're any more PRODUCTIVE than any other operator out there, but my experience is that our pilots do the same thing, so why shouldn't we make good money?
Finally, in general, you really seem to be against us getting a good wage. Just curious, but why is that? We aren't any threat to you. In fact, in a lot of ways it could HELP our industry overall. Isn't it time for wages to start coming back up? Why so much bitterness against our pilots, and in particular, our union? I guess productivity can be debated, but where else do you figure they are lying to us and making things up? This has been the best leadership I've seen in a long time. When they say a certain task will be accomplished, holy cow!, it gets accomplished! The grievances that have been resolved under this leadership (by the way, a grievance is where the COMPANY violates the contract THEY agreed to in the first place) have been one of the best testaments to their effectiveness.

Oh well, I'm outta here.

 

[Live4flyng]

That depends. As defined by the wise old men at ASAP who compare yearly flight hours and nothing else as a measure of productivity, I think it's clear that I fall into that "less-productive" category they speak of. In fact, using a $$$ per flight hour ratio equation, I'm insanely unproductive.

However....

...from an actual corporate flight department (as well as the rest of the business/private aviation world) standpoint, where it would be foolish to measure productivity and value by such a simple equation, I'm very productive....and worth every penny. They give me lots and lots of pennies. If they didn't, or not given good time-off to go along with it, I wouldn't have even considered working there.

I don't understand why people accept bad job offers, refusing them and walking away has always been a source of pleausure for me.

Wait a minute Cat. In a different post you talk about not expecting to be paid a reasonable salary and having time off. In this post you say having time off and being unproductive is well worth every penny they pay you. Talking in circles again? Which is it? Your arrogance speaks for it'self. You can be replaced like every other pilot in this world. What country did you say you were from? Start practicing those Lunar Landings.

 

[gray eagle]

I see that this thread has degenerated to the usual name calling and mine is bigger than yours routine. This fact notwithstanding, what is the plan if negotiations are RECESSED and the NJA Pilots are NOT released to self-help?

 

[Hawkered]

CatYaak

I've actually enjoyed most of your posts, and in fact find you quite amusing, but what is your end game?

You have obviously managed to isolate yourself quite nicely; few are seeing your point of view on a fractional address at this message board...so, now what?

You say you have an adoring wife who has sacrificed much so that you can be a white slave to a bank account. Must she endure nights of further boredom and frustration as you play mental masturbation on a computer key board?

Your billable rate as a corporate pilot is, as you have indicated, would work out quite high as an hourly. Is this something you really want getting out? What other inefficiencies of your company's operations should the shareholders be privvy to? Is it time that they reevaluated those efficiencies and considered shutting down their flight department?

You have said in the past that the fractional model doesn't work. That's strange:- 5,000 owners disagree! So you say we don't deserve more because we produce more "billable" hours per year? That's a strange economic perspective, not on our union's part but your own.

Please enlighten us further as to your wealth of knowledge of this accounting. Do you work for Arthur Anderson?!!

 

[Fozzy]

I see that this thread has degenerated to the usual name calling and mine is bigger than yours routine. This fact notwithstanding, what is the plan if negotiations are RECESSED and the NJA Pilots are NOT released to self-help?

2100 letters of resignation.

 

[FRACfa]

Absolutetly agreed! The fact that "flight attendants" who are CSRs and not required by FARs are being paid more is just b%$tt!

my first post- but my 2 cents. FAs work just as hard for our pay check as you do. BTW we are 135 trained and are really "flight attendants". (yes none of our equipment are we required to be on except the BBJ) Lets all agree that everyone deserves the same respect and higher pay.

 

[gray eagle]

2100 letters of resignation.

Fozzy, it is not realistic to suggest the total NJA Pilot force will resign. Resign to do what? The vast majority of us are not in the aviation game for our health. We, I, need a job as I am sure you do.

Now, the question remains, what does the MEC / NJA Pilot's union have in mind in the event Self-help is not an option? Please bear in mind that I know very little of the ins and outs of the RLA, but as I understand it a RECESS means status quo and that labor actions are not allowed. Am I incorrect?

 

[netjetwife]

Fracfa, please understand--our anger and frustration is not directed at the FAs of the company. The pilots are not questioning how hard you work, nor are they saying that you are overpaid. The problem is not with YOUR salary, but with THEIRS. Surely, you don't believe that your occupation entitles you to MORE money than the employee that pilots the plane? My husband flies the XL. As the FO, he also is in charge of the catering order, cleaning/restocking the plane, loading/unloading luggage, and assisting the px. He certainly has a very good idea how hard you work. Our complaint (the same as that of many other NJ families) is that many FOs share your duties, in addition to flying, and are paid LESS than FAs. We contend that just by virtue of their training and piloting skills, these employees rightfully command higher salaries. The fact that they feel insulted for being paid much less than they are worth, has nothing to do with you or the FMs that also receive more money.

 

[netjetwife]

Gray Eagle, the pilots are not discussing strategy these days--to do so would be detrimental to our cause. I suspect, though, that Fozzy was speaking for himself and perhaps for friends who have shared their intentions. Others have indicated the same thing. The badly paid NJ pilots have many options open to them at their payscale. Just today, I read that hourly workers at Walmart earn only about 2K less than a NJ FO. The Captains could take those Home Depot jobs you guys like to joke about. I can assure you that myself and the other NJ wives (they know who they are) in my online circle are SERIOUS when we discuss it as a possibility.

Yes, the NJ pilots need a job, just as you do. The point, however, is that there are many jobs available in the same pay range that will allow them to be home every night. If it came to that, I doubt you'd hear many wives and/or children complaining.

 

[CatYaaak]

I suspect that the (polite) reason that the NJ pilots haven't answered you is because you seem to have misstated the case completely. That and (less polite) they don't consider your post to be worth their time. I'll spare a few minutes between loads of laundry. We picked our son up from college today so that should tell you two things. 1) I don't have a lot of time for your post and 2) I hardly came to age during the Clinton Era.

You have the whole thing back wards, "Yaaak. It is the COMPANY that asserts that NJA's pilots receive MORE training and thus are SAFER. I suppose that is based on the fact that their FOs are required to pass a Capt check-ride. I am not here to argue the merits of whether or not they are THE safest. Do they have a good record? Yes. Does the company twist data to their own purposes? Yes. I've just read a document full of examples.

I don't doubt that you may have heard some NJ pilots question--sarcastically and bitterly--just why they are paid so much LESS than others who are LESS trained and LESS safe. I've never heard the NJ pilots being disrespectful to other pilots. I think you just failed to "get" a private joke. You have completely misconstrued the situation and misidentified the target of their bitterness.

It's no private joke, believe me. The rest of the aviation world has been laughing about the "best pilots" sloganeering since it came out by your sales people. But I'm looking at ASAP's statement, and looks to me like they are the ones drawing the inference regarding safety and training. Please show me where your company said NBAA member company pilots were "less-safe". Where is that in the brohure? I can't find it, so it looks to me like ASAP is the one taking swipes, direct and indirect, with no regard to facts in order to paint themselves in an illusionary, better light.

But given that Safety is paramount to any flight operation, the assertion is highly insulting when it's without foundation, and it is without foundation. That they would use it as rhetoric signifies ignorance, and in that ignorance, a willingness to publicly denegrate other professionals without cause on THE supremely-important/trumps-everything issue because of an internal squabble regarding poor wages that your husband and others willingly helped create and entrench. It's not akin to offhandedly saying someone is "less-productive", and debating the issue from a point of view. You're always talking about the responsiblity your husband because if he messes up, people can die. Then you know that to say someone is "less-safe" in aviation, is to say someone is "more likely to kill you".

If you want to dig yourselves out of your own hole, fine, but that doesn't absolve you if the dirt erupting from your Pity Party begins to fall on the rest of us. If you've spent 20+ years even observing the aviation world, you should know there is no fouler dirt than being unjustifiably deemed "Less-safe".

Prove the safety statement, or retract it. Do neither, and the slight aroma that was emitted before during the scablist frenzy just intensified to a major foul stench that they'll wear for a long, long time.

As for the training issue, I don't know of a Fortune 100 company (where those good NBAA salaries are) that operates without 2 type-rated captains. Passing a PIC check-ride as a new-hire is an old-hat standard....it became policy for NetJets to meet that assumed standard, or they wouldn've have trouble selling the service for the price in the arena they're stalking. The majority of those companies hire people who not only possess the type-rating before being considered, but many won't even glance at someone without at least 5K-7K total and 500+ hours time-in-type, just to weed out the wet-ink. Some guys get lucky with a lot less because they're an exceptionally good fit, but that's definitely not the norm.

I'm chuckling to myself though, wondering what your notion of "disrespecful" is? NJA pilots have called me a an idiot (by your leader grizz, no less), a moron, "LOSER", an a$$, Catpuke, a flame-baiting turd!, and delusional. I've also been offered an a$$ to kiss. And all that was just in the last couple pages of posts that I had to re-read because the labels were coming so fast and furious I kind of lost track.

In fact, it would be far easier to say that only 1 NJA pilot out of them all...Hawkered....DIDN'T lower himself to silly name-calling and attempted personal insult...he's a standout in that regard (besides yourself of course, you're always unfailingly polite to me and everyone else, so I'm putting you in the NJA Pilot category just so Hawkered has some company and you can help him raise the tide under the rests' sinking Maturity Boat). I've been assigned the notion of holding contempt for all NJA pilots by (once again) your fearless leader just because I disagree with him, and stood accused by another pesky one of being a scab, which is ungodly funny since my union-standing remains good at the big one that keeps track of those things.

So, given that I'm a pilot, this doesn't qualify as disrespecful? Or does pointing out flaws in one's arguments..the same ones they hope carry weight with decision-makers who I'm sure can see the same ones, or merely not chugging down the rhetoric and saying it's the best thing I ever tasted, earn that kind of treatment over there?

You see I'm actually an asset. If the loud-mouthy types in your midst would actually learn to channel their energy away from making threats to scablist/ close down flight departments/coming up with names to call people (and really unoriginal, boring ones at that) who simply point out flaws in their extraneous B.S. and flawed premises, and instead focus on what's important to your situation...which is finding the money and persuading those writing the checks that you're worth giving it to....your chances of success would increase.

I mean, if they can't handle me (someone who isn't actually working against them) without freaking out and succumbing to vitriol in place of legitimate, supportive backing for their position, then do you think they'll be of any use when facing hard-nosed, hardcore professional bargainers with multi-millions at stake? Being thin-skinned isn't an asset in situations like that, and at least one "leader" here not only can't control his troops except to say "Ignore him", but thinks not repairing the flaws in his premises and relying on emotions of demonizing dissenters and acting as if opposing debate is an attack will somehow see you through to the real goal in the real world.

Good luck with all that. I personally don't care about the insults, they bore me. But objectively, if this board is any indicator, there's a lot of emotional and professional immaturity floating around over there, and that's never a good combination when things stressful. I'd advise putting them on the phones, and keep them far away from walking the picket line.