netjets pilot contract ..2 yrs & nada!

[fuzzydice]

800 F/Os with PIC pay...

I sure wish I knew how to convince the folks at Flex that they need union representation. Fluctuating work rules and pay and no job security.

All the anti-union folks are scared out of their mind that Bombardier would shut the place down if Flex organized. These are the guys who will tell you that they don't know jack about unions, or just have "never been a union person." I've got news for them. Every other division of Bombardier is unionized. Flex can be unionized. Bombardier won't shut the company down. Flex is here to sell their airplanes. How would it make Bombardier look if they shut down the company, wrote off the owner's contracts, and hauled ass? Tell ya what, they ain't gonna have too many airplane orders after a PR blunder like that.

How many more changes in schedules is it going to take? How many more paycuts? How many more bi-weekly revisions via bulletin of work rules in the FOM? What is your breaking point? You guys are lowering the industry standard, lowering your quality of life standard, and lowering the respect of our comrades at other fractionals by standing for this bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**.

Pull your heads out of your asses and don't give me some lame ass reference to Hoffa or the mob. The Teamsters are the only labor group that expressed an interest in us, let's take them up on it. It isn't the Teamsters that will negotiate our contract, we will. The Teamsters provide the means and resources, we elect our own representatives.

"Look how long it's taking NJA to get a contract". I've got two answers to that. First, they already have a contract, and they can negotiate for changes to be retroactive. Second, if it takes us 2 or more years to get our work rules, benefits, and pay locked in.... let's get started. It's not an overnight process.

We're at rock-bottom right now. They really can't work us much harder or pay us less money. Let's vote to vote. Send in your cards, you can request one at the IBT's website.

 

[marqmarq]

EJM

Gunfyter,

Thanx for the kind words, I forwarded them to my former EJM brethren. It's always nice to have your peers appreciate your efforts, we always tried to represent the EJ family to the highest standards and make a flight with the 'float' as seemless as possible for NJ owners.

Also, your facts are correct. Seven EJM pilots were interviewed and six were hired before NJ stopped hiring and before we were fired. Interestingly enough, seniority played no role in who got to interview. For example, I requested an interview and EJM said OK, then called back and said my appointment was cancelled because 'more senior' pilots requested interviews. Only 2 of the 7 interviewees were senior to me! You'll hear this story repeated over and over. I have no spite towards the guys that got to go, I'm just jealous.

 

[vixin]

Hey Fuzzy,

I think you got me all wrong look at my other post on other threads. Gun and myself were just having a little discussion. I am so far from the FJ company person and believe me I hear what you are saying. I was just trying to better educate myself from Gun and to get a feel for how things may pan out.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Fuzzydice...

Fuzzy, I suggest that you take the money that you'd spend on trucker gangsters and shyster labor attorneys and give it to a shrink, or better yet, invest it. It'll get you a lot further.

We don't have a union at Flexjet because we don't want one. There are still enough people here with a lick of sense who know that what our problems are, a union won't solve.

It has done a lot of good at NJA... We are better off because of the Union...

How so? What exactly have the Teamsters done for you? what do you get that I don't that the Teamsters have secured for you. Please lay off the lofty, ethereal terms like, "union brotherhood", and "job security"... I'm not buying it. I'm enough of a believer in Capitalism that I know as long as I generate revenue without screwing up, and the business doesn't fail, I'm as secure as anyone can reasonably be. Even the ghost of Hoffa Sr. can't save you after a point. What's the P/E ratio of your union dues?

Fuzzydice, in his emotional and vulgar tirade (***CENSORED***), expresses desire for a union because he's reached his breaking point from too many FOM revisions. If I felt that way, I sure wouldn't admit it to anyone. I feel like I'm beating up children here.

My prediction: NJ's contract, when and if it ever comes through, is going to be a big disappointment. Sorry, the dollars just aren't there, and whatever you feel you "deserve" or "should be" making really isn't important. There's no such thing as fair - there's only what's reasonable and viable. You're dreamin' if you think Uncle Warren isn't going to appear on a white horse with bags of bills under each arm. That man is thrifty - he really understands the value of a dollar.

Please... management wants you to fly to work on your own time! That's what you get for having 1500 gateways! Doesn't sound to me like Southwest pay is anywhere near the table.

At NJA virtually all pilots are on PIC pay... thanks to the union contract.

Well, that's just absurd. Waddya all need raises for if you're all fancy jet captains. If you owned Netjets, would you like to pay FOs Captain's pay? Why or why not? How do you think that would effect the business as a whole? BTW - see my post re: efficiency elswhere.

 

[Lrjet55]

Almost all of Gunfyters remarks speak of the single most important factor in having a union and a union contract. No, not money or retro, but SCOPE. EJM and NJI are a perfect example of why SCOPE should first an foremost.
It is factors such as these that only in having a union is there a solid binding solution.
Many of you ask why have a union, well an EJM or NJI can happen to any Flexjet, Flight Options or who ever. Think of that next time the union comesaknockin.

Again, allow me to reitterate. I am not pro union. I wear my pin and bag tags in support of my fellow pilots. Our union and company and pilot group are building a relationship through growing pains.
Better to have the union and build the relationship than not have anything at all.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

I'd pay $900 anytime for 37 days OFF!

If I want to work less, I simply bid for it. It may mean I'll not make a days' pay, but I don't have to pay $24 for it either. And then I can make it back in overtime too.

So, how's your deal better again??

 

[Live4flyng]

Wow!

flexlrpilot357 sounds like an FX management type stirring up the pot. Beware of this person, he/she is a perfect reason for unionizing.

We don't have a union at Flexjet because we don't want one.

Is this Management speaking for the pilot group as a whole?

What's the P/E ratio of your union dues?

NJA Pilots P/E ratio of union dues to benefits is Enormous. flexlrpilot357's P/E ratio is ZERO, you aren't union. If you want to compare unions to investing, you have to take the chance and invest first! Very easy to be an armchair quarterback flexlrpilot357, but my guess is you are a management type and that is why you are so negative about this. As Vix stated, some pilots are just trying to educate themsleves, and why not learn from others who have been down this road.

Sorry, the dollars just aren't there, and whatever you feel you "deserve" or "should be" making really isn't important.

I love this one. How in the world would you know if the dollars are there or not? You must be a Berkshire Hathaway accountant with all that information. If BH wrote a check for $100 million tomorrow to the pilot group, it wouldn't even put a dent in a $36 billion dollar company. One thing you are right about though, it really doesn't matter what the pilots think they "desrve" or "should be making". The only thing that matters is what the union negotiates for the pilots, wether you think they "deserve" it or not.

You're dreamin' if you think Uncle Warren isn't going to appear on a white horse with bags of bills under each arm.

What? Did I read that right? I guess I am dreaming then, I don't think he will appear on a white horse with bags of bills etc., I don't think he will appear at all.

Thanks for beating us children up and teaching us all a lesson. And for the record Mr. Management, I am all for Capitalism!

 

[GEXDriver]

Scope

What did IBT Local 284 do about scope when NetJets brought the Gulfstreams on in 1996?

 

[Majik]

Ahhhh, I get it now. Thor really works for NJA and is just "acting stupid" to reinforce Gunfyter's argument. Smart move there Thor, but I see right through you.

 

[Duke of Ale]

Hey Gunny:

On that IQ test. What's the answer to #7? That's been bugging me for 6 months!

 

[old*art]

flexlr...

Please do not accept gunfyter's views as representatinve of NJ pilots. I would expect most want some type of representation, but most I know are uncomfortable with the Teamsters and would be happier with the $1 mil a year in dues spent in house. Of course if I were a Marine with two Teamster truck driver brothers I would probably be a rabid Teamster apologist just as gunfyter. Personally I am having trouble equating a 140 IQ with a Marine, based on the ones I know . (That's a joke gunfyter.)

 

[FracPilot]

Misconception

You are right.... I know a guy who was on a Falcon50 whose job went away when the airplane he was assigned to went away. So he was not furloughed.... Why he did not get assigned another airframe, I dont know?

How long ago was this? More than 5 years ago? Before Flight Options, perhaps? The company was known as Corporate Wings back then, and was a management company. Crews were assigned to specific airplanes, similar to corporate operations. If the airplane went away, so did that specific job. If the airplane that your friend was flying was truly a FLIGHT OPTIONS airplane and not a managed airplane(we did manage airplanes - under the old company Corporate Wings - for approximately 2 years after Flight Options was formed, but did not renew any of those management contracts when they expired), then he was not furloughed - he was fired, and he's making up excuses. Flight Options has never furloughed.

 

[SafetyTheSeat]

Gunfyter,

Smarter move there Mr. Gun Driver. Spend what few dollars you have proving that MARINE Gun Drivers are stupid enough not to understand that Buffet and Santulli will be rich and you will not.

Totally uncalled for Sir!!!

We are at WAR and any disrespect for any branch of our Military is wrong..

Retired Army Officer, Ex-Gun Driver

Son of a Marine, Ex-Gunny

Proud Father of a Marine, Gunny

An American! Who carries a gun to protect my family from Anti-American rot such as yourself...

Safeties off... (as in keep one's guard up)

Gunfyter if I ever meet you on the road I'll have a cold one with you....

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Hey gunny!!

I don't discount the idea of a Fractional Union if after all this wait I am presented with a substandard contract by the TEAMSTERS...

I thought that the pilots negotiated terms and stuff, the Teamsters were in a supporting role or something. How could they make the NJA pilots sign a contract that's substandard??

 

[old*art]

gf -
I have no trouble giving anyone their due. My point is I have yet to see ANYTHING from the Teamsters for the dues we send to the national, not that I really want or think we will need anything from them. Everything I have seen has been accomplished by the local members of NJA with it mattering not what you call them.
If there had been superior national leadership and input, we would have done the work being done now when the last contract was written. Yes the pilots here at the time voted it in, but where was that vaunted Teamster National leadership that should have been here to help a fledgling local writing the definitive document for an industry? Even this time around it is my understanding we have our own lawyer and are drawing on the expertise of the pilot force for out own cost/benefit analyst and own tax expert with essentially no imput from National.
I have no problem with representation. I think where we disagree is with whom we are calling the "Teamsters". I am referring only to the National and I personally do not feel we are getting our money's worth from them. From what I have seen the local could be called "Blue Goose 219" and we would not see any difference in National participation.