netjets pilot contract ..2 yrs & nada!

[davis]

Message to the teamsters and the mec....WAKE UP or be recalled! Two years and counting..stop wasting our timne and
money...Your days are probably numbered!

 

[WileE]

And the teamsters wonder why they can't get enough cards back from Flight Ops pilots to even start a vote. Their history with Netjets isn't exactly a selling point.

 

[Lrjet55]

Amen

 

[bluepost]

I don't care if its IBT, ALPA, independent, or God himself....the contract wouldn't have been done by now...why? Because we would of had the same MEC. Nationals mean little until you get to the strike point as far as speed of negationations are concerned.

The only way it would of been done is if our MEC rolled over and accepted the first thing that came at them, and they didn't thank God. 2 years isin't uncommon...look at Mesaba, America West, United....and these were modifications to an existing contract, not a total rewrite like we have in an industry will all non union competition...nothing to compare to, no path to follow, we are building the road as we travel, that takes time.

 

[davis]

Plan? How about some objectives and initiatives and milestones! THis MEC is
is beyond there level of experience and should step down, or get
a ta on the table yesterday.

 

[Joe Jet Pilot]

Can We Say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is what you get with a truck driving & baker's union!

 

[WileE]

Inevitable?

That has yet to be seen. I'll reserve judgement until there is actually a signed contract. I'm not holding my breath because it doesn't seem to be moving forward all that fast. Maybe you will get that golden fleece, then again, maybe you won't.

 

[vixin]

Gun,

And just how many 737 does NJA have? How many of the 1800 will ever see it? What about the non-union guys who used to fly the 737 for NJA? What are the pay rates at NJI on the Gulfstream? How about the rate for the 2000?Not that I am bashing you because FJ needs some serious help. But why do you continually point out the 737 pay? Do you think Because they got the rate for the 737 guys, that they are going to pay a Hawker or Ultra pilot the same? Lets all hope that is the case. Not because of the match of NJA plus 10%, but because we all should get more.

 

[Lrjet55]

I agree with you gunfyter. The Local did negotiate a good BBJ contract so only time will tell what happens with us.

As for being union, I dont know how you could not be with 2000 pilots. I spoke with a FLOPS pilot on my way home yesterday and he said the company was turning around with respect to how they are being treated. I think that is great but I pointed out that as quickly as they begin to treat you well they can also go the other way.
The union certainly makes things go slower but the trade off for consistent and expected treatment is worth it.

 

[WileE]

So let me get this straight, in the time since NJ went with the Teamsters all they have managed to negotiate is the pay for the BBJ guys? Exactly how many pilots is that? Meanwhile all the rest of the pilots have to deal with substandard pay. It still doesn't seem like the negotiations are making much progress. If it takes you five years to get a raise to what the others have been making that entire time and the rest of the companies get a 10% raise in response, as you seem to think they all will, doesn't that still put you way behind the non-union companies?

I certainly haven't heard a whole lot in the areas other than pay that NJ is so much better than us. Some stuff is a little better on your side, some is better on ours. But as a whole personally I just can't see how you rate NJ as so much better. Care to be specific, and not just about how great it is to be a BBJ pilot, I know that that would be great, but so would being in the top of the seniority list here.

I don't have anything against any Netjets pilots BTW. The fact that they are union and restrict the domiciles are a couple of reasons why they ranked second on my list of preferred companies to work for. It just so happened that FO ranked first and I got lucky enough to get the call. The fact that they ranked above every company out there other than FO should tell you that I do feel that the Netjets guys have a pretty good deal. These endless negotiations do beg the question about how much worse or better off the pilots would be right now if they hadn't voted in the union. Not a question that can be answered either way BTW, just an academic question that can be argued until the cows come home like any other what if in this industry.

 

[Lrjet55]

NJA was my first choice but back then I would have taken which ever came first. Some of my reasons for choosing NJA were financial stability, reputation, size, diversity, new a/c etc. Being that I lived at my gateway and I was going to be a commuting airline pilot the gateway issue was not really an issue for me.

As for the unions, I am one of the most vocal with respect to the delay and progress of this contract. My perceived notion that Local 284 doesnt truly represent the pilots and my dues are for the most part wasted on a trucker somewhere are well documented. That being said, I honestly would not work for a company of this size without it. There are certain luxuries afforded to us as union pilots. That representation, albeit not perfect, is something I cherish and count on. Issues between the company and union do take longer but they are documented and abided by. We had a pilot return to service after a year on the street. He filed his grievance over his termination and the union got him his job back. The company changed a couple of rules relating to extended days and consequently extended day pay and time off so the union filed a grievance and won. We received our back pay and days off. Granted this took over 6 months but the pilots won.
With a non-union company the company will change its tone towards the pilots to suit the situation. Rumor has it that FLOPS pilots will be getting a raise soon or so I hear. The company wants to make sure you dont vote in a union. They will, for lack of a better term, kiss your butts to make sure that doesnt happen. Rest assured as quickly as they chnaged their tune it will change again. Almost anything goes with a non-union company and there isnt a whole lot the pilots can do.
I would love to work for jetBlue and they dont have a union but mark my words within a few years they will. With size comes diversity in the employees. No longer is HR able to hire that one specific team player. Diversity dictates just that. People will expect different things and when the company cannot satisfy everyone, things change.

Trust me, vote the union in. Give yourself to have a structured growth. For example, think of scope. One of the single most important issues for companies of our size. Under a employee handbook agreement you have no protection. Think of benefits or seniority. Without a contract you have no protection for changes to either. Let pose an example for you. Say FLOPS starts doing poorly financialy and they decided to get rid of the Challengers or Falcons, they can furlough just those pilots out of seniority. The large cabin aircraft are taking a hit so that is a possibility. Wehre is your protection. Also, in keeping with the example, you could lose you health benefits or be made to pay for them yourself. Not a big deal for an individual but think of it in terms of a typical family. That could certainly be expensive.

There are tons of issues to be concerned with. Aunion contract helps you know where you stand. Its not perfect at all but I will take it anyday over the alternative.

Oh yeah, one last thing. The BBJ contract was completed only a few years ago. Our contract was already voted in and the amendable date had not been reached yet. Either way we are getting a new contract. I expect it sooner than later and the "proof will be in the pudding". Hopefully it will be good other wise our MEC and the Local 284 with be up the perverbial tributary without sufficient means of propulsion. 2000 broke, pist off pilots isnt something I want on my hands...

 

[Lrjet55]

SUEN1843

I think my fellow cohorts cleared up some of the points you were asking about. In my opinion the other fracs are looking at solely the negative or perceived negative about a union. I must admit, I am not always happy about it myself but as gunfyter pointed out, seniority is key. Also as JP11 mentioned the NJI fiasco, this could easily happen to any company. The FLOPS managment loves the pilots right now but soon that will change, its only human nature. Then just imagine signing a deal with a large manaufacturer at a time when management is very unhappy with the pilots and, blammo, FLOPS sister company is born with a whole new set of pilots. It can happen, anything can happen.

 

[vixin]

Hey Gun,

Fracstats is old outdated info that is no longer accurate. It has plenty misstatements about FJ...ie pay, OT, health care etc.

 

[VivaZapata]

I know former FLOPS pilots and EJM pilots (our non-union sister company) who were furloughed out of seniority

FLOPS has not furloughed any pilots in its existence, pre or post merger. Some have been fired, none were ever furloughed. Whether or not some of the firings were justified is another subject.

 

[vixin]

Gunfyter,

Do you think that all those PIC paid guys will still get PIC pay after the contract is complete? I dont think NJA can afford to pay 800 Fo's captain pay when that are not captains. If they do then any new hire will be long waiting an upgrade for NJA will be pretty captain fat. Just like it is at FJ. What about those 50 or so still making FO pay, those are the ones I feel for. We have other problems involved at FJ, but thats another story I discussed on another thread. All I know we are all underpaid and overworked. Sure there are pluses and problems at all fracs. Uniuon or no Union we have to make it better for everyone.

 

[fuzzydice]

800 F/Os with PIC pay...

I sure wish I knew how to convince the folks at Flex that they need union representation. Fluctuating work rules and pay and no job security.

All the anti-union folks are scared out of their mind that Bombardier would shut the place down if Flex organized. These are the guys who will tell you that they don't know jack about unions, or just have "never been a union person." I've got news for them. Every other division of Bombardier is unionized. Flex can be unionized. Bombardier won't shut the company down. Flex is here to sell their airplanes. How would it make Bombardier look if they shut down the company, wrote off the owner's contracts, and hauled ass? Tell ya what, they ain't gonna have too many airplane orders after a PR blunder like that.

How many more changes in schedules is it going to take? How many more paycuts? How many more bi-weekly revisions via bulletin of work rules in the FOM? What is your breaking point? You guys are lowering the industry standard, lowering your quality of life standard, and lowering the respect of our comrades at other fractionals by standing for this bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**.

Pull your heads out of your asses and don't give me some lame ass reference to Hoffa or the mob. The Teamsters are the only labor group that expressed an interest in us, let's take them up on it. It isn't the Teamsters that will negotiate our contract, we will. The Teamsters provide the means and resources, we elect our own representatives.

"Look how long it's taking NJA to get a contract". I've got two answers to that. First, they already have a contract, and they can negotiate for changes to be retroactive. Second, if it takes us 2 or more years to get our work rules, benefits, and pay locked in.... let's get started. It's not an overnight process.

We're at rock-bottom right now. They really can't work us much harder or pay us less money. Let's vote to vote. Send in your cards, you can request one at the IBT's website.

 

[marqmarq]

EJM

Gunfyter,

Thanx for the kind words, I forwarded them to my former EJM brethren. It's always nice to have your peers appreciate your efforts, we always tried to represent the EJ family to the highest standards and make a flight with the 'float' as seemless as possible for NJ owners.

Also, your facts are correct. Seven EJM pilots were interviewed and six were hired before NJ stopped hiring and before we were fired. Interestingly enough, seniority played no role in who got to interview. For example, I requested an interview and EJM said OK, then called back and said my appointment was cancelled because 'more senior' pilots requested interviews. Only 2 of the 7 interviewees were senior to me! You'll hear this story repeated over and over. I have no spite towards the guys that got to go, I'm just jealous.

 

[vixin]

Hey Fuzzy,

I think you got me all wrong look at my other post on other threads. Gun and myself were just having a little discussion. I am so far from the FJ company person and believe me I hear what you are saying. I was just trying to better educate myself from Gun and to get a feel for how things may pan out.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Fuzzydice...

Fuzzy, I suggest that you take the money that you'd spend on trucker gangsters and shyster labor attorneys and give it to a shrink, or better yet, invest it. It'll get you a lot further.

We don't have a union at Flexjet because we don't want one. There are still enough people here with a lick of sense who know that what our problems are, a union won't solve.

It has done a lot of good at NJA... We are better off because of the Union...

How so? What exactly have the Teamsters done for you? what do you get that I don't that the Teamsters have secured for you. Please lay off the lofty, ethereal terms like, "union brotherhood", and "job security"... I'm not buying it. I'm enough of a believer in Capitalism that I know as long as I generate revenue without screwing up, and the business doesn't fail, I'm as secure as anyone can reasonably be. Even the ghost of Hoffa Sr. can't save you after a point. What's the P/E ratio of your union dues?

Fuzzydice, in his emotional and vulgar tirade (***CENSORED***), expresses desire for a union because he's reached his breaking point from too many FOM revisions. If I felt that way, I sure wouldn't admit it to anyone. I feel like I'm beating up children here.

My prediction: NJ's contract, when and if it ever comes through, is going to be a big disappointment. Sorry, the dollars just aren't there, and whatever you feel you "deserve" or "should be" making really isn't important. There's no such thing as fair - there's only what's reasonable and viable. You're dreamin' if you think Uncle Warren isn't going to appear on a white horse with bags of bills under each arm. That man is thrifty - he really understands the value of a dollar.

Please... management wants you to fly to work on your own time! That's what you get for having 1500 gateways! Doesn't sound to me like Southwest pay is anywhere near the table.

At NJA virtually all pilots are on PIC pay... thanks to the union contract.

Well, that's just absurd. Waddya all need raises for if you're all fancy jet captains. If you owned Netjets, would you like to pay FOs Captain's pay? Why or why not? How do you think that would effect the business as a whole? BTW - see my post re: efficiency elswhere.

 

[Lrjet55]

Almost all of Gunfyters remarks speak of the single most important factor in having a union and a union contract. No, not money or retro, but SCOPE. EJM and NJI are a perfect example of why SCOPE should first an foremost.
It is factors such as these that only in having a union is there a solid binding solution.
Many of you ask why have a union, well an EJM or NJI can happen to any Flexjet, Flight Options or who ever. Think of that next time the union comesaknockin.

Again, allow me to reitterate. I am not pro union. I wear my pin and bag tags in support of my fellow pilots. Our union and company and pilot group are building a relationship through growing pains.
Better to have the union and build the relationship than not have anything at all.