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NetJets Contract Status
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1900cpt
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 246
Gump, your comment about joining the Teamsters was intended to be a joke although it couldnt be closer to the truth. Too many people are of the mindset that once the contract is settled they will come to work for us. What they dont understand is that there are a ton of good people that have already applied so once the contract is settled and we are making what we expect to be making it will be way too late.
Before all of you blast me I know the application process is slow and tedious. The one thing I can say is that those of you who have already applied are doing it at the right time. You have realized NetJets is a great job with a great future.
Best of luck.
Before all of you blast me I know the application process is slow and tedious. The one thing I can say is that those of you who have already applied are doing it at the right time. You have realized NetJets is a great job with a great future.
Best of luck.
ArmyPilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2002
- Posts
- 60
Humbly Disagree
Not to offend anyone but I have to ask.... exactly what rewards are you speaking of? Join the Teamsters to pay dues and make less money then your counterparts at other fractionals? Better yet make less money then an FO at other fractionals as a Captain at EJ? I have ran into many, many... did I mention many? EJ pilots on the road that are very unhappy with the representation they are recieving.
So please not to offend anyone out in Net land but I have to pipe up when I hear a statement about the Teamsters and their representation.
Ok... go ahead flame me
And of course I still can't spell!
Not to offend anyone but I have to ask.... exactly what rewards are you speaking of? Join the Teamsters to pay dues and make less money then your counterparts at other fractionals? Better yet make less money then an FO at other fractionals as a Captain at EJ? I have ran into many, many... did I mention many? EJ pilots on the road that are very unhappy with the representation they are recieving.
So please not to offend anyone out in Net land but I have to pipe up when I hear a statement about the Teamsters and their representation.
Ok... go ahead flame me
And of course I still can't spell!
trainerjet
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2002
- Posts
- 507
This is not meant to be flame bait or start any kind of war...it's just a question that's been on my mind for some time and I was wondering what some of you think.
What incentive does the company have to settle this "new contract" that's been talked about for a couple of years now, with literally hundreds if not thousands of pilots lining up to take the job "as is"? Apparently, the supply of pilots willing to come to NJA under the current deal is endless, so where's the incentive to the company to change things, especially in this economic climate?
What incentive does the company have to settle this "new contract" that's been talked about for a couple of years now, with literally hundreds if not thousands of pilots lining up to take the job "as is"? Apparently, the supply of pilots willing to come to NJA under the current deal is endless, so where's the incentive to the company to change things, especially in this economic climate?
ArmyPilot:
I tend to agree that union representation could be improved. But, I'm getting my money's worth. I know airplane and schedule bids will be handled strictly by seniority, and I know a personality conflict with a supervisor won't get me fired. The free health insurance alone is worth a lot more than my union dues. Further, it should be pointed out that virtually everyone at NJA receives Captain pay after getting out of indoc. A more valid pay comparison would be NJA Captain pay vs the other frax F/O pay, at least for the first two or three years.
I tend to agree that union representation could be improved. But, I'm getting my money's worth. I know airplane and schedule bids will be handled strictly by seniority, and I know a personality conflict with a supervisor won't get me fired. The free health insurance alone is worth a lot more than my union dues. Further, it should be pointed out that virtually everyone at NJA receives Captain pay after getting out of indoc. A more valid pay comparison would be NJA Captain pay vs the other frax F/O pay, at least for the first two or three years.
NJA Capt
Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2002
- Posts
- 462
What do we have that our competitors don't have?
Duty/rest limits
better 401K
better insurance
don't have to pay for med, dent, eyesight
still hiring
still buying airplanes
still upgrading
better hotels (generally speaking)
crew food at will
protection from disciplinary action
work rules
seniority rights
better schedules (opinion)
don't have to trade vacation time for sick time.
larger company
better financial backing
dues less than ALPA
Duty/rest limits
better 401K
better insurance
don't have to pay for med, dent, eyesight
still hiring
still buying airplanes
still upgrading
better hotels (generally speaking)
crew food at will
protection from disciplinary action
work rules
seniority rights
better schedules (opinion)
don't have to trade vacation time for sick time.
larger company
better financial backing
dues less than ALPA
Last edited:
NJA Capt
Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2002
- Posts
- 462
Re: Humbly Disagree
The idea that we make less than competitors is pretty misunderstood. I never include per diem, expenses, or extra days in the salary computation. I used the Flight Options pay conversion website during the Raytheon merger. At my position in life (family, kids, medical, etc.) the pay differential was less than $3000. With respect to FLO LLC, there is no way I would trade my package here for 3K.
Truth be know, the reason most guys are mad when you ask them about the contract, is because you "asked" about the contract. We get asked that question by everyone in the free world every place we go. It's synonymous with your kids asking, "are we there yet?" every :05 minutes of an 8 hour drive.
First, the corporate world was mad at us because we were bringing down the salary averages. Now, everyone is counting on OUR new contract to bring up THEIR salary.
It comes across pretty hypocritical that the people badmouthing our union are the same ones counting on our union in hopes that their company will follow suit. The sad part is they only have empty promises. We are the only ones that "have it in writing."
Flight Options has absolutely NO responsibility to raise pay because we get ours. They can make promises all day long, but it is not "legally binding" and in writing.
In my opinion, the other fracs don't know how bad they NEED a union. 8 day tours, 14+ hour days, trading vacation for sick time, seniority du jour? It sounds like a commercial "No rules...Just do it."
I know everyone on our MEC, and I support them 100%. If we have to wait to get the contract we deserve, we will wait.
ArmyPilot said:
The idea that we make less than competitors is pretty misunderstood. I never include per diem, expenses, or extra days in the salary computation. I used the Flight Options pay conversion website during the Raytheon merger. At my position in life (family, kids, medical, etc.) the pay differential was less than $3000. With respect to FLO LLC, there is no way I would trade my package here for 3K.
Truth be know, the reason most guys are mad when you ask them about the contract, is because you "asked" about the contract. We get asked that question by everyone in the free world every place we go. It's synonymous with your kids asking, "are we there yet?" every :05 minutes of an 8 hour drive.
First, the corporate world was mad at us because we were bringing down the salary averages. Now, everyone is counting on OUR new contract to bring up THEIR salary.
It comes across pretty hypocritical that the people badmouthing our union are the same ones counting on our union in hopes that their company will follow suit. The sad part is they only have empty promises. We are the only ones that "have it in writing."
Flight Options has absolutely NO responsibility to raise pay because we get ours. They can make promises all day long, but it is not "legally binding" and in writing.
In my opinion, the other fracs don't know how bad they NEED a union. 8 day tours, 14+ hour days, trading vacation for sick time, seniority du jour? It sounds like a commercial "No rules...Just do it."
I know everyone on our MEC, and I support them 100%. If we have to wait to get the contract we deserve, we will wait.
ArmyPilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2002
- Posts
- 60
Thank you
I have to say I am very glad to see how professional everyone has been in response to my original post. That is why I like this particular message board; everyone (normally) seems to be able to present his/her opinion without "flaming" the other party.
It always seems that when the word Union is brought up in any conversation their are generally those absolutely FOR IT and then their are those absolutely AGAINST IT. I never seem to see an "in between" opinion. I for one am not particularly a supporter of the Union however, their is situations when one is needed. Also, in every job their is things that could be changed to make the job that much better, what concerns me is that union supporters (IMHO) feel that these issues, as small as they may be, can only be solved with Union representation. When in reality many of the problems we have as a pilot group can simply be solved with good management relations. Get rid of the "Us against them" and everyone can work much more productively, throw the Union mix into the situation and it clogs up the whole mix. Additionally, I truely believe the Union promotes an "Us against them" attitude and that approach can only lead to a negative outcome for the Company as a whole.
On the other hand if you have bad management, unwilling to work with the workforce, unsafe working conditions, low wages, no job security, etc. etc. then of course you have to look toward third party representation.
Do I live in a perfect world?
I have to say I am very glad to see how professional everyone has been in response to my original post. That is why I like this particular message board; everyone (normally) seems to be able to present his/her opinion without "flaming" the other party.
It always seems that when the word Union is brought up in any conversation their are generally those absolutely FOR IT and then their are those absolutely AGAINST IT. I never seem to see an "in between" opinion. I for one am not particularly a supporter of the Union however, their is situations when one is needed. Also, in every job their is things that could be changed to make the job that much better, what concerns me is that union supporters (IMHO) feel that these issues, as small as they may be, can only be solved with Union representation. When in reality many of the problems we have as a pilot group can simply be solved with good management relations. Get rid of the "Us against them" and everyone can work much more productively, throw the Union mix into the situation and it clogs up the whole mix. Additionally, I truely believe the Union promotes an "Us against them" attitude and that approach can only lead to a negative outcome for the Company as a whole.
On the other hand if you have bad management, unwilling to work with the workforce, unsafe working conditions, low wages, no job security, etc. etc. then of course you have to look toward third party representation.
Do I live in a perfect world?
ArmyPilot:
A union contract is merely an enforcable agreement that sets out the conditions of employment. If every company had a comprehensive employee handbook that constituted a contract between the company and individual employees the unions would disappear. Unfortunately, this is rarely a practice in real life. A written contract is a given in every facet of life except employment. (Ever hear of a marriage contract?) Even in employment, executives routinely demand and receive written contracts. But, when it comes to non-executive employment, the company holds all the cards and a non-union employee without an individual contract has virtually no rights. Regardless of the enlightenment of the employer, each party needs to know precisely what is expected and what will be given in return. You have (or had) an employment contract with the Army that spelled out in great detail the terms of your employment. This is 90% of what a union contract provides an employee. You also had the right of appeal through your chain of command and to Congress. If all else failed, you could enlist the court system to ensure the contract was followed. You won't have these rights at non-union civilian firms.
A union contract is merely an enforcable agreement that sets out the conditions of employment. If every company had a comprehensive employee handbook that constituted a contract between the company and individual employees the unions would disappear. Unfortunately, this is rarely a practice in real life. A written contract is a given in every facet of life except employment. (Ever hear of a marriage contract?) Even in employment, executives routinely demand and receive written contracts. But, when it comes to non-executive employment, the company holds all the cards and a non-union employee without an individual contract has virtually no rights. Regardless of the enlightenment of the employer, each party needs to know precisely what is expected and what will be given in return. You have (or had) an employment contract with the Army that spelled out in great detail the terms of your employment. This is 90% of what a union contract provides an employee. You also had the right of appeal through your chain of command and to Congress. If all else failed, you could enlist the court system to ensure the contract was followed. You won't have these rights at non-union civilian firms.
Boxcar
"A union contract is merely an enforcable agreement that sets out the conditions of employment. If every company had a comprehensive employee handbook that constituted a contract between the company and individual employees the unions would disappear."
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. There are lots of companies with comprehensive employee handbooks. Flops, for example. Go back and read NJA Capts post for further explanation.
A union is a necessary evil. Show me any "comprehensive" employee handbook that will cover and support the upwards of 2000 pilots we have and the close to 4000 we are supposed to have.
Aahhh, Forget it.
"A union contract is merely an enforcable agreement that sets out the conditions of employment. If every company had a comprehensive employee handbook that constituted a contract between the company and individual employees the unions would disappear."
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. There are lots of companies with comprehensive employee handbooks. Flops, for example. Go back and read NJA Capts post for further explanation.
A union is a necessary evil. Show me any "comprehensive" employee handbook that will cover and support the upwards of 2000 pilots we have and the close to 4000 we are supposed to have.
Aahhh, Forget it.
"You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. There are lots of companies with comprehensive employee handbooks. Flops, for example. Go back and read NJA Capts post for further explanation. "
Thanks for the tirade, but I said an ENFORCABLE employee handbook. If it's possible to draw up a union contract covering 4000 pilots, I don't see why putting similar language in a handbook would be impossible. It would, of course, require an independent third party to resolve disagreements. Without an enforcability process, management can ignore their handbook whenever they wish, while making it a firing offense for an employee to do so.
Thanks for the tirade, but I said an ENFORCABLE employee handbook. If it's possible to draw up a union contract covering 4000 pilots, I don't see why putting similar language in a handbook would be impossible. It would, of course, require an independent third party to resolve disagreements. Without an enforcability process, management can ignore their handbook whenever they wish, while making it a firing offense for an employee to do so.
This thread
This thread might be funny, if it weren't so sad. It seems there are some very disgruntled people on both sides of the fence here. In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"
We're all doing the same job, just for different companies. If you think your job is better than the rest, GREAT! You're exactly where you should be. Why take or continue a job you don't want/like? Putting down the pilots of another company, or another company alltogether, is just what the managements of each company would like to see. If we were all good friends and could stick together, we could get much more from our respective companies. But, alas, it will never happen. I run into pilots from every company that are unhappy, and pilots from every company that think theirs is the best and all the rest suck.
I really couldn't care less what somebody thinks of me or the company I work for. I am happy where I am, and feel it's the best place for me, all things considered. I hope most of the fractional pilots feel the same way.
This thread might be funny, if it weren't so sad. It seems there are some very disgruntled people on both sides of the fence here. In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"
We're all doing the same job, just for different companies. If you think your job is better than the rest, GREAT! You're exactly where you should be. Why take or continue a job you don't want/like? Putting down the pilots of another company, or another company alltogether, is just what the managements of each company would like to see. If we were all good friends and could stick together, we could get much more from our respective companies. But, alas, it will never happen. I run into pilots from every company that are unhappy, and pilots from every company that think theirs is the best and all the rest suck.
I really couldn't care less what somebody thinks of me or the company I work for. I am happy where I am, and feel it's the best place for me, all things considered. I hope most of the fractional pilots feel the same way.
outside looking in......
Let me just say from the perspective of someone who desperately wants to fly for NJA...
I would GLADLY work under the existing situation, will welcome the new contract when it becomes effective and would be of the mindset-"I'm very fortunate to be making decent money for doing something I enjoy". While I realize this is oversimplification, I'll bet there are hundreds of pilots just like me who want to come work for NJA, FO, Flex-Jet,etc. regardless of the current situation. I hope those of you who have been fortunate enough to be hired by these companies stop and count your blessings. As for me, I'll continue to try to get someone to "hand deliver" my resume' as that seems to be the only way to get an interview. Good luck to you all and let's remember: truly professional pilots make up a small fraternity-we should be ever-supportive of each other.
By the way...anyone who is so moved by my words of inspiration that they'd like to help in my quest to join the frational brotherhood can PM me at their convenience...(only half-kidding).
Let me just say from the perspective of someone who desperately wants to fly for NJA...
I would GLADLY work under the existing situation, will welcome the new contract when it becomes effective and would be of the mindset-"I'm very fortunate to be making decent money for doing something I enjoy". While I realize this is oversimplification, I'll bet there are hundreds of pilots just like me who want to come work for NJA, FO, Flex-Jet,etc. regardless of the current situation. I hope those of you who have been fortunate enough to be hired by these companies stop and count your blessings. As for me, I'll continue to try to get someone to "hand deliver" my resume' as that seems to be the only way to get an interview. Good luck to you all and let's remember: truly professional pilots make up a small fraternity-we should be ever-supportive of each other.
By the way...anyone who is so moved by my words of inspiration that they'd like to help in my quest to join the frational brotherhood can PM me at their convenience...(only half-kidding).
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