Netjets combining?

[h25b]

Your're right But now our foot is in the door....

A door that the Sham-meister was FORCED to open.

Agreed... But you gave him plenty of time to slam it right back in to your face. If I were in SU's shoes I'd be very concerned about things like separate operational control, separate paychecks, etc... Despite what the others are saying while patting themselves on the back for this empty victory you need to be worried about how the NMB is going to view the situation. You didn't win an integration, you just won a shot at convincing the NMB of an integration. It's what they think matters that counts.

If the Sham-meister caved why in the world does it take so long ??? He just bought time, he knew that you guys would cave in on other items during negotiations if he threw out the Gulfstream carrot.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

"O" Come on.
At the current rate 50 additional aircraft = 50 NJA Pilots. Hardly three boat loads.

No problem with the help of my 2300 plus brothers who have their oars deeply working the water. None of us expect to break a sweat.

 

[Spyguy]

I lean towards the it's not a done deal side, but back to my original statement as far as when and roughly how long did the other petitions last?

 

[h25b]

I lean towards the it's not a done deal side, but back to my original statement as far as when and roughly how long did the other petitions last?

Well, the GJ/TSA dispute was filed for Single Carrier by ALPA on Sept. 15, 2005 and ALPA was ruled against on Dec. 21, 2005 ...

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf

If history is any judge, 3-5 months from filing to ruling... I'd recommend reading through this report if you think an NJA/NJI petition is a done deal...

 

[VVJM265]

Good info from h25b. For what's its worth, a long and exhustive analyses of all the options out there has let me to conclude that NJI or NJA is where I want to be when I retire from the Navy. (http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=892769#post892769) If I had the JAA & EU pasport I'd toss NJE into that as well. I'm still getting educated on all this stuff as I get ready to make the jump to the civilian side so its nice to see some good discussion on this and a few other recent threads.

The NMB report is interesting reading if one takes the time to actually sit down and do so. (Yes I did.) There certainly lots of parallels and I thought the report was very comprehensive, especially the references to other cases as far back as '87 (TWA/Ozark). After I read through the report I took another look at the NJA/NJI websites & the FAA aircraft registry. From what I read today and after following these discussions for the last year or so, I'd say certainly not a done deal, there would appear to be arguments for either case, it really looks 50/50 from what I see. I guess time will tell in about 3 years.

Thanks to all who take the time to post some intelligent debate and information.

 

[h25b]

Good info from h25b. For what's its worth, a long and exhustive analyses of all the options out there has let me to conclude that NJI or NJA is where I want to be when I retire from the Navy. (http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=892769#post892769) If I had the JAA & EU pasport I'd toss NJE into that as well. I'm still getting educated on all this stuff as I get ready to make the job to the civilian side so its nice to see some good discussion on this and a few other recent threads.

The NMB report is interesting reading if one takes the time to actually sit down and do so. (Yes I did.) There certainly lots of parallels and I thought the report was very comprehensive, especially the references to other cases as far back as '87 (TWA/Ozark). After I read through the report I took another look at the NJA/NJI websites & the FAA aircraft registry. From what I read today and after following these discussions for the last year or so, I'd say certainly not a done deal, there would appear to be arguments for either case, it really looks 50/50 from what I see. I guess time will tell in about 3 years.

Thanks to all who take the time to post some intelligent debate and information.

I would like to know if the NMB looks at other rulings such as the TSA ALPA/GJ's decision and applies it as case law. In other words, was it a precedent ??? If it is, ouch ...

 

[DO-82 driver]

Having been through a single carrier suit in the early '90's I will say that there are more ties between NJA and NJI than what existed between the small ALPA commuter I was involved with and our "sister" commuter.

It took the NMB 3 1/2 to finally rule that the 2 cummuters were indeed a single carrier....we unfortunately went bankrupt shortly after the ruling.

Nothing is a slam dunk......Woodbridge has plenty of tricks up their sleeves to pull in the next 3 years. However, the case for single carrier can certainly be made in many respects.

Can I bid a plane at FlexJet? I can at NJI
Can I be pulled off my trip to do a Citation Shares flight?...I can for NJI
We both speak to the same people in CMH.....
The list goes on and on and on.....

To say we are 2 totally, independant companies is ridiculous. A blind man could see it.

 

[TORCH67]

This whole thing is about political jockeying. It will have little or no effect on the NJA pilots. Very few will be in a position to bid the G-whizzes, and an even smaller percent will even want to. I know I wouldnt want to breach those waters, life is too short to deal with it. So go ahead and keep puffing out your chest and tell us how my Jet can beat up your jet. This is really fun watching!!!

 

[Q Service]

Who gives a crap who has to talk to who in the company to make that happen?

Uh, I dont know... Maybe the National Mediation Board?

I said THE company as in singular. IT IS NOT TWO COMPANIES DISCUSSING MATTERS BETWEEN THEMSELVES!!!!!

GOD why can't people figure this out? The only reason our hiring is separate is Richard Santullis PRIDE. Nothing else.

I could give a fecal matter whether we join or not.

 

[h25b]

The facts supporting a single transportation system do not exist in this case. Each Carrier has its own management team that is in charge of day-to-day operations. While individuals in GJ’s management team previously worked for TSA, all of those individuals left their employment with TSA before joining GJ's. TSA was incorporated in Missouri while GJ's is an LLC formed in Delaware, and has no Board of Directors. While TSA and GJ's are commonly owned by TSH for Hulas Kanodia, he has no involvement in the management of either entity, and this factor alone will not support a finding of common control. [FONT=Bookman Old Style,Bookman Old Style]See Allegheny Airlines, Inc., et al., [/FONT]29 NMB
- 36 33 NMB No. 9
160 (2002) (Board found no single transportation system despite the fact that the three carriers at issue were owned by the same holding company, noting each carrier’s separate control over its labor relations and operations).
Labor relations and personnel functions at GJ's and TSA are handled separately. Each Carrier has its own website which lists only its job openings, and each Carrier has its own employment applications and personnel forms. GJ's and TSA have separate terms and conditions of employment, different wage rates, and separate benefit plans. Further, the Carriers maintain separate seniority lists and employee rosters.
GJ's personnel recruit and interview applicants for GJ's positions; TSA personnel perform the same functions for TSA positions. Any work done by TSA or any other entity on GJ’s behalf is temporary and done pursuant to a contractual arrangement. GJ’s temporary outsourcing of some work functions is insufficient to support a single carrier finding. [FONT=Bookman Old Style,Bookman Old Style]See Allegheny Airlines, Inc., et al.[/FONT], [FONT=Bookman Old Style,Bookman Old Style]above[/FONT], at 171 (no single carrier finding even though one carrier performed customer service/ramp functions for the other carriers on a contractual basis).
GJ’s and TSA’s operations are clearly separate. While the Carriers both lease space in the same office building, employees for each Carrier have issued ID badges which only allow them access to their respective offices. Each Carrier has its own payroll and operational bank accounts, its own aircraft and operating and flight manuals, and its own training arrangements. While the paint scheme for each aircraft is determined by the regional partner, GJ's and TSA fleet are identified accordingly, pursuant to DOT regulations, by stickers on each aircraft. Further, all Pilots wear the "brass" of their employing Carrier, GJ's or TSA, when dressed in the standard uniform of their regional partner.

The above is from the recent TSA NMB Ruling. For those who don't think it matters where the paychecks come from I highlighted an interesting sentence...

The only reason our hiring is separate is Richard Santullis PRIDE. Nothing else.

This is absolutely FALSE. The reason the hiring was separated was because that was one of the terms that Gulfstream demanded. Ever since there has been no reason to ever change that...

 

[Q Service]

This is absolutely FALSE. The reason the hiring was separated was because that was one of the terms that Gulfstream demanded. Ever since there has been no reason to ever change that...

Do you work for either NJI or NJA?

I suppose RTS who was about to place a BILLION dollar order just lets Gulfstream walk all over him.

Convienient isn't it that he was able to open a non-union shop.

 

[VVJM265]

I said THE company as in singular. IT IS NOT TWO COMPANIES DISCUSSING MATTERS BETWEEN THEMSELVES!!!!!

No flamebait intended, just asking a question, but if it is one company, then why are there six seperate companies listed on the NetJets website?

http://www.netjets.com/News%20And%20Info/netjets_companies.asp

 

[DO-82 driver]

h25b.....time will tell.....we aren't talking about regionals....we're talking about a single company that is owned by 1 person.

This is new grounds for the NMB and no one knows which way its going to go. For every point to prove 2 seperate companies...a person can find an equally valid point supporting a single carrier operation.

All the speculation in the world means nothing...especially in this venue.
The only thing that is going to make a difference is when the lawyers start their arguments.

Until then....everyone is an expert and everyone's conclusion is the only one possible.

 

[h25b]

Do you work for either NJI or NJA?

I suppose RTS who was about to place a BILLION dollar order just lets Gulfstream walk all over him.

Convienient isn't it that he was able to open a non-union shop.

Your ignorance of the initial startup of the Gulfstream operation is really showing here. RTS didn't have the capital at the time to finance the initial core aircraft. So Gulfstream provided the aircraft and dictated the terms of how they would be staffed...

Don't believe me ? Ask GVFlyer, he works for Gulfstream and was intimately involved at the time...

 

[Q Service]

No flamebait intended, just asking a question, but if it is one company, then why are there six seperate companies listed on the NetJets website?

http://www.netjets.com/News%20And%20Info/netjets_companies.asp

There are six different OPERATIONS listed.

All of which are marketed under the brand name of NETJETS.

All of which report to one guy in Woodbridge NJ.

Richard (Dick) Santulli.