NetJets Burning

[Starman]

It seems very clear now that Boisture, Santulli and Buffett want a show down. It's unfortunate that they'd rather watch the company go down in flames than pay a reasonable wage. Anyone thinking of coming here, don't. It would be a colossal mistake.

 

[FamilyGuy]

It seems very clear now that Boisture, Santulli and Buffett want a show down. It's unfortunate that they'd rather watch the company go down in flames than pay a reasonable wage. Anyone thinking of coming here, don't. It would be a colossal mistake.

What is unfortunate is that you seem willing to destroy a very good company and all the accompanying jobs that it creates in your unrealistic quest to double your pay.

You need to remember that your compensation is the sum of wages, benefits, work rules, schedules, etc. Its already been stated numerous times on this board that NetJets has the best benefits, work rules, schedules....the only place you lag is in wages, and that is only by a couple of grand.

Your union has negotiated improvements in most of the non-wage areas. These improvements cost the company money. If you want more money then I suggest that you go back and revisit some of the non-wage issues and identify some areas where you can give the company more flexibility so that they can give you more money. This business of wanting to cherry-pick the best features of the corporate world, fractional world, and airline world, is not realistic or sustainable. Buffett and Santulli realize this and are not willing to give in to unrealistic demands that will cripple the company.

 

[h25b]

This business of wanting to cherry-pick the best features of the corporate world, fractional world, and airline world, is not realistic or sustainable. Buffett and Santulli realize this and are not willing to give in to unrealistic demands that will cripple the company.

That pretty much sums up the situation. I wouldn't argue that a pay raise is in order but it's not going to come without sacrifices in other areas.

 

[av8orboy]

Anyone thinking of coming here, don't. It would be a colossal mistake.

Don't worry, I won't.

 

[Diesel]

You need to remember that your compensation is the sum of wages, benefits, work rules, schedules, etc. Its already been stated numerous times on this board that NetJets has the best benefits, work rules, schedules....the only place you lag is in wages, and that is only by a couple of grand.

A couple grand? Ummm a couple grand a month. The union and the company are way off on pay. The company wants to increase pay by 300 a month. No thanks.

It's amazing how familyguy, dispatcher and facfriend have been on this message board constantly banging the drum of NJA. What do they really have to add to the fire though? They are looking from the outside in.

h25b even though i might not agree with what he says I still respect his opinion because he's on the road making it happen. The other guys are just paid shills to try and spin spin away.

 

[h25b]

h25b even though i might not agree with what he says I still respect his opinion because he's on the road making it happen. The other guys are just paid shills to try and spin spin away.

Diesel,

I have nothing personally against you, I just don't think the setting the place on fire attitude is going to accomplish anything but destroy the company and there's not much evidence to support the notion that a hard core union philosophy is the answer either. It's just a tough position to be in and I can honestly say that the only for sure way to see NBAA wages is to take your years of experience and put it to work at a Fortune 500 NBAA company... There's been a significant amount of hiring lately.

If you come in to INT or GSO PM me and the "spirits" are on me..

 

[Diesel]

I know GSO and INT very well. Used to fly a kingair in and out of there and also down to Littleton. I've also got family at greenville at fountain in.

The burn it down attitude comes out of frustration. 4 years of being promissed just work a little harder, just turn a little quicker and we will make you the richest pilots out there. So here we are. Frustration and anger have built up to a boiling point.

Now the company says thanks for all the hard work. We've grown leaps and bounds and now the company is at risk because we oversold the program and we arent willing to pay you.

That's where the burn down and STMFD comes from.

 

[Dep676]

Some people seem to be missing the point here. The company (NJA) as raised the rates to the owners to provide raises for the crews, have they gotten them? NO!! SO they are just suppose to stand back and say ok to a stinkng 300 a month? When they know that the buck has been passed on to the owners more than once.

It is people like the nay sayers that put this industry in ruins it is in. Oh just be happy to have a job. That's a big pile of BS and you know it. If people do not stand up for what they believe in, we would all be working for minimum wage. I think with the starting wage and hours at NJA they just may be doing that now. Which isn't right.

Just ask yourself how many of the managers are making six figures salaries at NJA? For what? If any of them are like the ones we have at Options. They are not worth half of what they make. They could not find there way out of paper bag if someone did not show them the way.

Also if you are sick of hearing or reading these posts about NJA. Then do even open the thread just pass it by. A little common sense goes a long way.

 

[JustInfo]

Unbelievable!!!!!

I have been one to cling to an ounce of hope that management was going to finally come around and treat the pilot force with the respect we deserve for the job we do, I WAS WRONG! Just did some morning reading and I am in shock. This last offer is a bigger slap in the face than the last one. This place will be gone very soon, come get the free type ratings while you can! I know BB will give all the other employees the freshly spun version of their offer, but it only applies to a very small fraction of the pilots, they won't give you the "big picture" of this proposal.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I did a little calculation of seniority, percentiles, etc, and the majority of 5th-year-pay captains will be in the 51-60% range, not the 71-80% the company is trying to spin. Actually, NONE are in that percentile. The 51-60% figure is $69,985. The failed TA was $69,000. Boy, they really want to make a deal, huh?

 

[NJAowner]

Extra Fees to Owners

The company (NJA) as raised the rates to the owners to provide raises for the crews, have they gotten them? NO!!

This is one of the big misconceptions which has been on the board for a long time. The pilots have been told by someone other than the Company, that the Company raised management fees to the owners years ago to pay for the raises to the pilots. Suppossedly, the Company has been stockpiling this cash for years, without passing any of it along to the pilots.

I have never had an increase in fees to cover the new pilots contract. I have been with the Company for enough years that I have had to renew my contract, and the only increases have been the standard minimum 3.75% increase in fees each year. In fact, the contracts provide that the fees shall increase at the great of a certain CPI calculation or 3.75% per year.

Fly safe.

 

[Dep676]

The company (NJA) as raised the rates to the owners to provide raises for the crews, have they gotten them? NO!!

This is one of the big misconceptions which has been on the board for a long time. The pilots have been told by someone other than the Company, that the Company raised management fees to the owners years ago to pay for the raises to the pilots. Suppossedly, the Company has been stockpiling this cash for years, without passing any of it along to the pilots.

I have never had an increase in fees to cover the new pilots contract. I have been with the Company for enough years that I have had to renew my contract, and the only increases have been the standard minimum 3.75% increase in fees each year. In fact, the contracts provide that the fees shall increase at the great of a certain CPI calculation or 3.75% per year.

Fly safe.

So where does this 3.75% go then? Also if you have a big share 3.75% can be a big chunck of money. Take that times the number of owners and it will add up. Another thing is the cards they are selling. I do not believe they buy new airplanes fro them. So they are using your airplane for some 25 hour card member to fly on. I know that is how it is workinig at Options and the real onwers of the planes are not to pleased about it.

 

[squonk]

How about we just stop bankrolling NJE? Look at all the savings we could put towards paying a pilot and a NJA "team member" also.

 

[IH8MESA]

First year f/o in a jet 2100 a month gimme a break i could make more as a garbage man and they pay for your uniforms plus government bennies

 

[IH8MESA]

i forgot to mention that there is no a$$ kissing working as a garbage man

 

[Semore Butts]

We can only hope.

We can only hope that this is hitlers, I mean moistures, "battle of the bulge".

Their last effort at a longshot at defeating the resolve of the pilots.

I just can't seem to get why someone would get a "charge" out of destroying the dreams of a decent life for 2000 pilots and their families.

Oh yeah, Its only business, thats right. I'm glad I don't make my living off the blood money I squeeze out of honest people.

Management appears to be willing to spend more money to destroy this union then they would to pay what we are asking.

They are sending the message that they will allow the company to die before they will relinquish to our demands.

To Family Guy, CMHtroll, Dispatcher, and whomever I left out on our ground team, I'm sorry.

Management will sacrifice many if not all of your jobs as well if this doesn't go our way, and they won't even blink. They don't care anymore about you then they do us.

No "me", no "you".

Good luck to all of you.

 

[Dep676]

We can only hope that this is hitlers, I mean moistures, "battle of the bulge".

Their last effort at a longshot at defeating the resolve of the pilots.

I just can't seem to get why someone would get a "charge" out of destroying the dreams of a decent life for 2000 pilots and their families.

Oh yeah, Its only business, thats right. I'm glad I don't make my living off the blood money I squeeze out of honest people.

Management appears to be willing to spend more money to destroy this union then they would to pay what we are asking.

They are sending the message that they will allow the company to die before they will relinquish to our demands.

To Family Guy, CMHtroll, Dispatcher, and whomever I left out on our ground team, I'm sorry.

Management will sacrifice many if not all of your jobs as well if this doesn't go our way, and they won't even blink. They don't care anymore about you then they do us.

No "me", no "you".

Good luck to all of you.

See that is where the problem is. If these people really do work at NJA and some in CMH. I think they put something in the water there. We get the same response from people that work in CGF for us at Options. They seem to have a blurred vision that it is all the pilots fault. That is pretty strong kool-aid if you ask me.

 

[dsptchrnja]

To Family Guy, CMHtroll, Dispatcher, and whomever I left out on our ground team, I'm sorry.

Management will sacrifice many if not all of your jobs as well if this doesn't go our way, and they won't even blink. They don't care anymore about you then they do us.

The audacity and desperateness of your quotes just continue to impress.

The company has re-stated it's position that non-bargaining employees will have work to do and no lay-offs would be anticipated. If you decided to STFD you will be closing them only on yourselves. I would rather you guys just stick around and accept the industry leading pay proposal on the table and get to work on the next contract.

It could be worse...

2 major carriers filing bankrupty in one day... if your dreams are dashed by the company not doubling your pay, imagine what it might be like to be like these guys who are facing pay cuts and loss of pensions - that's if they keep their jobs. Grass isn't looking so green any more. Nobody wants it that way - just harsh reality.

Best of luck to you as well, sincerely.

 

[dsptchrnja]

First year f/o in a jet 2100 a month gimme a break i could make more as a garbage man and they pay for your uniforms plus government bennies

The proposal by the company for a 1st yr contract for a FO is $45,099 working 216 days/yr. That is 3758.25 a month. This is more than CS, FO, or FLEX.

 

[flyjetspeed]

I have posted something similar before, however I would like to hear any thoughts on how this would progress if we ever get to it. Having never been in a union I am clueless on the process. What happens in the event of a walkout?

Something like this?

After the recess ends the NMB releases the IBT 1108 and the Company to "self help"

The Union calls for a vote to ACTUALLY strike and passes.

The Pilots begin the strike 30 days after release.

The company responds with a lockout.

EJM and NJI go to Day on-Stay on mode, ALL HANDS ON DECK!

Massive use of Vendors, who have been gearing up for a year now.

Immediate hiring of "replacement pilots" begins.

Some number cross the line,(please don't try to resurrect that dead horse, the scab list)

After an unknown length of time(perhaps months and months) a compromise agreement is reached, or not.

Is this another PATCO?

 

[Hogprint]

disptcher posted:

I would rather you guys just stick around and accept the industry leading pay proposal on the table and get to work on the next contract.

I bet you do! That is your job though, right? Keep banging the drum.

 

[ghostrider64]

Disptcher failed to mention a comparison between proposed scale and that in use at NJI today....

Until he does I ask him politely to stand aside and let those directly involved to continue discussion...

 

[flyjetspeed]

Disptcher failed to mention a comparison between proposed scale and that in use at NJI today....

Please clarify what you mean by "a comparison"

 

[ghostrider64]

Flyjet speed...The company in their email blast to every NJA employee(propaganda) showed how their offer was X% more than various other companies salaries..

Unfortunately they didnt show a comparison to other Berksire hathaway companies IE NJI, EJM and NJE...Of course when that info is released I hope they compare them based on how many days you work a year...But don't hold your breath. they wont be releasing that comparison EVER because how would it look...X% LESS THAN NJI, NJE and EJM...

 

[JPB]

The audacity and desperateness of your quotes just continue to impress.

The company has re-stated it's position that non-bargaining employees will have work to do and no lay-offs would be anticipated. If you decided to STFD you will be closing them only on yourselves. I would rather you guys just stick around and accept the industry leading pay proposal on the table and get to work on the next contract.

It could be worse...

2 major carriers filing bankrupty in one day... if your dreams are dashed by the company not doubling your pay, imagine what it might be like to be like these guys who are facing pay cuts and loss of pensions - that's if they keep their jobs. Grass isn't looking so green any more. Nobody wants it that way - just harsh reality.

Best of luck to you as well, sincerely.

Dude; do you spend every night at home? Are you a pilot. Do you know what it takes to be one?
The Delta and NW guys are 1000 times better off that with the pathetic NJA organisation.
I suggest you find yourself a site for whatever you do (play with computer, yourself,...)

 

[flyjetspeed]

Flyjet speed...The company in their email blast to every NJA employee(propaganda) showed how their offer was X% more than various other companies salaries..

Unfortunately they didnt show a comparison to other Berksire hathaway companies IE NJI, EJM and NJE...Of course when that info is released I hope they compare them based on how many days you work a year...But don't hold your breath. they wont be releasing that comparison EVER because how would it look...X% LESS THAN NJI, NJE and EJM...

Obviously I do not have access to the E'mail(s) you are refering to. It does seem to me that trying to compare Citation Ultra/Beech 400 pay to GIV/V pay is a lost cause. The owners pay different rates for their shares, why does the company have to pay the same rate for each pilot? This has never made any sense to me. Even within NJA the BBJ folks get a different pay scale, appropriate (I assume) to what the BBJ can earn. Don't get me wromg here I believe you guys should get a better paycheck than you do. Just saying that, in a free market, a Falcon 2000 Pilot is worth X and a BeechJet pilot is worth X minus while a GV pilot is worth X plus. Additionally any attempt to compare NBAA salaries to Frax salaries is also doomed to fail. We both know (at least I certainly do) that this job is nowhere near as large a demand on our time as the average Pt 91 Corporate Job is. From personal experience I would say this job is about 60-70% as demanding on my time as my previous job. Maybe less.

 

[ghostrider64]

Well the current proposal doesn't differ by fleet. So a Falcon guy will make the same as a 400XP guy...The only fleet that is different is the BBJ...As I said they did not compare us with "any" other of our own companies. Now I would ask several things.

Why should the Gwhiz guys of the same company have a different scale, when I fly internationally as well and I'm not talking about canada and mexico I'm talking everywhere to include long over water trips?

Why would they not compare us to Europe when they fly the same aircraft and are paid differently for every type they fly and they have stricter work rules?

Why on earth would they compare us to what ASA makes? This one really threw me....

 

[squonk]

flyjetspeed posted:

The owners pay different rates for their shares, why does the company have to pay the same rate for each pilot?

We picked up a G-IV owner the other day. I was talking to the wife and she was telling me they were long time owners.

I asked them how often they flew on NJA planes and they gave me the hundred yard stare...

Husband speaks up and says, well we're with Netjets, they send us any plane we want.

I tightened him up on the breakdown. He understood he owned a Gulfstream share, but was totally out of the loop on the breakdown of the companies.

70% as demanding on my time From personal experience I would say this job is about 60-as my previous job. Maybe less.

This may be true of NJI, but believe me, from personal experience, this is not true of NJA.
__________________

 

[JustInfo]

All it is...

The "matrix" BS is just another way of disguising pay by weight. They are making the assumption more senior guys will be in the bigger planes etc. What if I don't want the bigger planes? Then I guess I can still get onto the higher pay scale in 30 years or so. Not real happy the matrizx was even given a thought let alone suggested by the union. They can keep their generous 4 percent raise I would be looking at for my "percentile" category.

 

[Mach92]

The audacity and desperateness of your quotes just continue to impress.

The company has re-stated it's position that non-bargaining employees will have work to do and no lay-offs would be anticipated.


I REALLY wish you could hear what Bill Boisture says to our union leaders vs what he and NetJets is putting out. He has said many times that NetJets will fail and everyone will be gone unless xyz happens. Now do you honestly think they are going to send out ANY communication that says "hey NetJets employee things are not going well and YOU yes you mr dispatcher, owner services rep, travel dep agent ETC might be out of a job" ah NO!!! Ever hear of someone playing both sides?

Bill Boisture is doing just that. While they send out stuff via the crew ops web no layoff's. The on going joke to us pilots is remember when the US invaded IRAQ? Remember there information officer standing in Bagdad saying "there is no invasion and we are in control all is well" when in fact US forces were on the edge of town. Hello welcome to Bob Ubanks AKA Bridgeway Bob. NetJets is so full of themselves its funny.

I have many friends that work on the floor in Columbus. Whats sad to me is the total disrespect for you and the lies about whats really going on.

Yes the pay offer was that bad. In fact some pilots would under the current proposal take a pay cut vs our current 4 year old CBA. Would you vote for a pay cut? There is so much more to this stroy that I just cant talk about. Seek out a fellow pilot and find out whats really going on. The truth may just shock you.