NetJet is gonna EXPLODE!

[Aspiring to be]

Very surprised to hear Diesel say that his company does not interpolate on temp. Safety is one thing but going above safety levels is difficult for me to understand. Do you add/subtract the wind factor? Do you add/subtract RW slope? Do you add to these and round up on all things. I do not see where safety is compromised by using actual figures. Has nothing to do with being a test pilot. The numbers should be in your book. I guess the safest thing we can do is keep the aircraft in the hanger then we will give a total of 100% safety with zero risk associated with flying. I admit that legal and safe are two different things at times but to pad the numbers is not fair to the owners. If you are legal and safe then I see no need to pad the numbers. What would you do if you had a 6 knot tail wind, go to 10 knots? What would you do if you have RW slope of 1% go to 2 % ? Does not take a brain surgeon to figure the actual max allowable T/O weight and use that number.

 

[GVFlyer]

GV,


..." Lieutenant, take care of your Marines and your Marines will take care of you." That inspired me and I really saw that kind of leadership practised and I tried to lead that way myself. In the military we mentored our subordinate leaders and monitored their careers. We cared about our people... we really did.

...Espirit de Corps. That means a strong feeling of comradeship for your coworkers and the company mission. Thats what Real leaders instill in their people. And you either have Espirit de Corps or you don't. The best Flying Job in the world is military pilot IMO...

...I believe a good management VALUES its human assets.... And good leadership should LEAD the employees to economic success! ...

I couldn't agree with you more.

Semper Fi, Marine!

 

[Aspiring to be]

I never said anything about not being safe. I do not believe in compromising safety but I do believe that if the actual numbers are there then not to go could be wrong. I did say that I see no need to pad the numbers. You only need the numbers required. If you are legal for departure, then in my book it means that you meet all requirements. With passengers I would under no circumstance operate less than required under part 135. What the poster indicated to be that if he was legal at 6 but legal at 10 degrees then he would not go because he rounded his numbers up. Sorry but I do not agree. I have operated too many flights that were at max for departure for some reason. To pad the numbers in a part 121 operation could mean you are leaving revenue behind, not normally allowed by the company unless you have some other good reason. In part 135 it might mean that you just not leave. What ever is the most restrictive on departure is what you must use. I do disagree with padding the numbers. The poster that I was responding to said that he or his company would round the numbers up for safety. I believe that your decision to go or not to go should be made using real numbers.

 

[CatYaaak]

GV..While the unions may not have been 100% correct in everything that they have pushed for, I would hate to think where you, me and the rest of our fellow pilots(121/135/91) would be today if our pay and benefits had been left to the benevolence of the employer.

Hmmm, so now highly-paid, Part 91 corporate pilots (never unionized) supposedly owe ALPA etc, their gratitude also? Talk about hubris.

 

[A4Forever]

Cat... Well then, to what would you attrubite those "High Paying Corporate Jobs"? It has to be the product of something. My point is that someone/something raises the bar. For the most part, it was a union. That's not to say that there aren't any benovlent employers out there. (somewhere)

 

[CatYaaak]

Cat... Well then, to what would you attrubite those "High Paying Corporate Jobs"? It has to be the product of something. My point is that someone/something raises the bar. For the most part, it was a union. That's not to say that there aren't any benovlent employers out there. (somewhere)

Corporate pilot's salaries are a function of the value of the assets they manage, the risk they manage, the security they provide, and the value of the time and hassle saved by highly-paid executives by traveling on their own aicraft as opposed to the ineffecient and time-wasting airlines that are also prone to slowdowns and strikes. Corporate aircraft do not directly generate revenue for the company, and salaries have never been, are not, and never will be a function of the potential revenue the aircraft can directly generate. What raises the bar in corporate aviation is providing better service than any airline can muster, and returning high pay with loyalty. I don't know one corporate pilot that works for a negotiated hourly rate, they work on salary. They get paid the same whether they are flying, waiting at hotels, at airports, by the pool, for being ready. The terms "per diem, trip rigs, duty rigs, and bidding" all those things that unions negiotiate for, are alien. Most of all, corporate pilots don't view management as the enemy because they know they flight department isn't THE company, but exists only as a tool to help the company in it's endevours. They don't stike or threaten to strike. They get paid to make management's life easier, and more productive.

Your so-called union-won "bar" means nothing outside the common-carriage world of 121 and 135. The fundamental basis of every union-negotiated pay scale at the airlines (unlike the corporate sector) is the revenue generation potential DIRECTLY created by the particular aircraft those pilots fly, and negotiated at an hourly wage. Big airplane = big hourly rates. Smaller airplane = less. It has nothing to do with the cumulative value of lives on board, except for the uninformed. Revenue generation drives airline salaries, not value of the asset or the time and convenience of those riding on the aircraft. If negotiations break down and no agreement is reached on this partitioning-out-the-revenue question, they strike, or threaten to, or slowdown, and to he11 with the passengers. If the wheels don't move, you don't get paid. Pulling back the power so as not to arrive too early is virtually unknown in the corporate world, but common in the airline world. Taxing out when you know you will sit for 2 hours on the taxiway when you don't need to is unfathomable, but it's no secret that airline pilots will do it so they can block out and start making that $20 or $200 per hour....so what if the pax are trapped going nowhere. That's the kind of nonsense that will get you fired in the corporate world...you're paid well not to engage in such childish devices.

You see, the sun (nor corporate pilot salaries) doesn't rise and fall with what airline unions do, and frankly, they don't care. If you think G-lV pilots wait breathlessly to see what the latest step-bargaining scale at ..um....United will be so they can run to their CEO and say, "hey I'm not gonna work unless you give me an industry-leading contract", then you are sorely mistaken. Airline bargaining "issues" are barely on the radar screen, let alone the center of the universe no matter how much you want it to be true.

Both groups may pilot airplanes, but the airplane's "reason for being" and the basis and structure of pilot pay to do those jobs almost diametrically opposed.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I realize that this example assumes a 121 op, but bear with me:

Suppose a 757 pilot flies 6 hours in a particular day (2 3hr flights)and earns (for sake of argument) $250 per hour.

If the aircraft was full (assume 250 pax), the pilot was responsible for 500 lives over the course of 6 hours.


Now suppose that a 737 pilot flies 6 hours (4 1.5 hr flights).

Suppose that the aircraft seats 125 full.
This pilot was responsible for 500 people for a total of six hours.

Additionally, this pilot had two extra takeoff/landing cycles to be responsible for. Possibly approaches to low weather.


The 757 pilot makes 6 x $250 = $1500

The 737 pilot might make 6 x $180 = $1080


The argument can certainly be made that the 757 pilot is responsible for more lives at a time, but another argument could be made that the 737 pilot is responsible for more critical phases of flight in the given time period.

In short, pilots love to talk about 'responsibilty' and 'revenue production' ad nauseum. The truth is that most pilots could not being to quantify all of the tangible and intangible factors that determine pilot pay. Which leads to the real truth - we do it this way out of tradition - nothing more. It is humorous to watch people try to use logic to defend religion. This is very nearly the same thing.

This method of determining compensation is a shot in the dark that is better than nothing, but it still is a blunt tool.

 

[Aspiring to be]

Cat Yaaak your dislike and disrespect for airline pilots is indicative of a bitterness cause by not being able to be one. Yea I know you never have had a desire to be an airline pilot. Your attempt to classify these pilots as self centered money grabbing pilots is not called for. You know nothing of what you speak; I was an airline pilot and of course know hundreds more.

I have never met an pilot that would leave the gate only to get on the clock. Many times the company has asked me to leave when I knew we could not leave but the gate space was needed. I have taxied out in an L-1011 and had the passengers watch almost 2 complete movies prior to departure. I have taxied out at JFK, ORD where the wait was over an hour many times. To wait would not have changed that time unless you maybe waited until the next day. Gate hold at times will help. Wonder what you do if yoiu have a gate hold, do you just tell your owners, well maybe tomorrow will be a better day? I have never heard of anyone pulling the power back so they would not be early. I have been warned about gate space on the ground that would not be available until a certain time and I have pulled back to LRC to save fuel when I knew that all we could do is sit on the ground when we arrived. I have taxied out at TEB and waited for an hour with what I figured was no choice. Yes I could have waited until the delay was reduced to your acceptable level but the average person would rather wait an hour than cancel or wait 8 hours or more. I can assure you that it was not to get on the clock.

You write as a person bitter toward airline pilots. You can try and deny the benefits that have filtered down to every facet of aviation that were due to what the airlines pilots accomplished. It is like cutting off your nose in spite of your face. You know nothing about the normal contract of the airline pilots. I doubt that you know much about the history of aviation. I am sure you know little about the group of pilots that have done more and yes raised the bar for all. If fact I really think you know little about anything. You are opinionated and that is fine but keep your insults to your sorry self.

 

[Aspiring to be]

I wanted to add to my previous post that any delay that I have ever taken after leaving the gate was a result of or caused by ATC. Grow up Cat Yaaap!

 

[varicam]

Aspiring to be:

Well said!