Net Jets Savannah

[da90drivr]

Don't forget NetJets Middle East.

 

[CatYaaak]

Oh yeah those guys too, and isn't there something going on down in Mexico? They're probably getting paid at least a gazillion pesos!

 

[NJA Capt]

...consulted corporations on fractional ownership as disinterested parties

Now THIS I am truly shocked at!

I bet you were one of the guys in the '90s that said that fractionals would calapse when the stock market dives. Then when it didn't, you said, "well, then next time the market tanks....you'll never make it."

Well...uh..good luck with that.

 

[CatYaaak]

Now THIS I am truly shocked at!

I bet you were one of the guys in the '90s that said that fractionals would calapse when the stock market dives. Then when it didn't, you said, "well, then next time the market tanks....you'll never make it."

Well...uh..good luck with that.

Not at all...fractionals are a good idea for a niche market vs. other options, and that's old news even back in the 90's. Sometimes it's a good fit for an individual or company, other times it's not, and although it's easier to sell something to a individual, corporations will usually look into it further than just what your salesmen are saying and what their own counsels are telling them is technically legal, especially if it's their first involvement with "owning" and airplane. There are many gray areas they'd like more info on.

For instance, the notion of selling "occupied time" is a purely fractional invention, and those non-flying tenths of hours subtracted from an owner's time bank really add up over a year if their stage lengths are primarily short ones. A new owner doesn't know that airframe and engine time limits are not figured by using time spent on the ground, and yet they will be paying for it as an "owner" in the fractional scheme. It's up to the prospective owner if things like this suit him, but he should be informed.

And to the contrary, it's always been thought by most that fractionals would actually benefit from major market downturns in the form of corporate budget cuts that would either close flight departments or reduce flying to the point of falling into that niche where fractionals make fiscal sense, and therefore having to compete with them. Part of what creates the boundary of that niche you occupy is labor costs, and yours are low.

Your greatest advantage within this niche after getting the tax code sorted during the time of your growth became a company's (and especially a newbie individual's) ability to project and costs over the period of the contract. Any larger, well-run department does this easily, but many smaller operations fall short in this regard. The other one is flexiblity and a small company get access to more than one aircraft if the need should arise.

The disadvantage even within that niche is that a company opting for a fractional provider instead of their own operation gives up elements of operational control, corporate security, personnel choices, and the ability to tailor their own aircraft. These things fall outside the realm of law or beancounting, but they still remain very important considerations to many companies.

So I've been, and remain, objective about fractionals and the service they provide for some. Apparently though, you've construed my vocal non-objectivity about pilots agreeing to work for substandard wages as some kind of attack on a business model, which would be pretty non-sensical since those live or die on their own merits according to changing times. In the business model you've chosen to work under like any other service provider, higher costs passed along to the customer for the same service means it's less attractive, and shrinks the niche where it's a good option. In the end, every contract is re-visited at the end of it's term and new choices are made by those who sign on the dotted line. Drive costs up too high, and the business model will implode because corporate flying and charter operations will be their waiting, and you're walking a tightrope supported by niche economic advantages but fall short in many tangible and intangible areas.

The model works, but it depends on you working for peanuts and won't grow and will probably shrink if costs or labor hassles (because they translates into hassles for the owners, not just your own employer) go sky-high. The job is a wage-trap, and basically, it sucks to be you.

 

[gunfyter]

My Cat,

That was an intelligent, well thought out post.

Regarding this last part:

The model works, but it depends on you working for peanuts and won't grow and will probably shrink if costs or labor hassles (because they translates into hassles for the owners, not just your own employer) go sky-high. The job is a wage-trap, and basically, it sucks to be you.



​

I think the time is coming where we will find out to what degree you are correct. I think most people are willing to "shoot the moon" and find out. This business will either pay a proper wage or Shutdown if it will not.


One other question.

Part of the increased cost will come from compliance with 135 rest regulations which will be enforced on our industry but is NOT being enforced to a large degree on our 135 on-demand competition. Any thoughts or predictions there?

 

[Publishers]

The Cat makes good points. As I mentioned earlier, there are advantages and disadvantages to being on the Netjets program. The owner today disliked the crew changes. With a $32.0m aircraft, he wants a consistant crew that knows what he wants.

They looked at a number of programs, mentioned that Clay Lacy doubles the $350 for the flight attendant, things like that.

Netjets has been great at introducing people to the business and private flying. The question is whether they can keep it up. They fly the hell out of the aircraft to meet the committments for service. They may pay low end, but, then the pilots want guaranteed schedules and a bunch of benefits like they are an airline.

The pilots may win but the whole system rides a precarious edge.

 

[Diesel]

kind of ironic that the pilots that don't even work in the fractionals claim to be the biggest experts.

 

[Live4flyng]

The model works, but it depends on you working for peanuts and won't grow and will probably shrink if costs or labor hassles (because they translates into hassles for the owners, not just your own employer) go sky-high. The job is a wage-trap, and basically, it sucks to be you.

Are you saying that NJA pilots should work for peanuts while NJI/NJE/EJM etc. make twice as much money? Not really sure if I understand where you are coming from. The majority of the pilots came here knowing that the contract was amendable in 2001. Most were lied to about how much they would make and the huge payraise that would come with the new contract. Management has decided to drag the negotiations out for almost 4 years. This has forced the pilot group to use methods available to us to complete the contract. If management wants to implode the company, so be it. We will not budge any further. What exactly is your background Cat? Did you ever work in a job to build time for less than the millions you are making now? Everyone has to start somewhere, right? Maybe you should take a look at your generation to find the answers to todays industry problems. You may be salty, but just remember when you are pointing that finger, there are 3 pointing back at you.

 

[Publishers]

Well not speaking for CAT, the fact is that we have been at this a long time, granted more from the business view than the pure pilot view.

There is no question that this niche market that was created has some strange things fall within it. Let's take EJM for an instant. They have someone else deciding the pay not them. Furthermore, the person deciding the pay may or may not care whether the aircraft makes any money. The charter companies they hire do of course care about making a buck for their owners and now EJM is trying to add to the cost of that for a profit.

You come into Netjets as a 2nd officer at $28,000 or whatever it is and the guy at EJM in the 2nd position may be making twice that. He may be but he does not have scheduled days off, live where he wants, airline around, and may not have the benefits you do. He probably does not have a union or any contract and is there at the whim of the owner.

Yhe irony is that you guys all fly the same people, same trips.

Now the fact is that Netjets runs a very costly operation for the level of service. That EJM guy may be doing what 3 guys are doing as side jobs at Netjets from flight planning to dispatch to maintenance.

Now you may get more money, but, the bottom line is this is the type of operation this is and you either like it or not. If you want to be the other guy, walk over there and apply.

 

[AA717driver]

Gunfyter--You have broken the code. You must be willing to take the risk of being shut down if you want to make any decent gains in compensation. Otherwise, management has you by the short hairs.

Diesel--Just because we haven't been at a frac doesn't mean we haven't been around. I've been a union member for 17 years. I've experienced just about everything a union has to "offer" other than a strike. (And I lived a couple of those vicariously through my friends.) I've been F'ed more times (by both management AND "my" union) than most BKK hookers. I've also gotten some back by creatively interpreting the contract.

I've experienced the 'irrational exuberance' the NJA guys had in anticipation of the new contract and I've felt the betrayal when my union accepted a crap TA. It's even worse when that crap TA is voted in by 60%.

So you don't have to have worked for a frac to have been down the same road. Same S**t, different uniform.TC