Net Jets Savannah

[gunfyter]

If you buy a new house in a different school district, are you forced to pay back taxes because your neighbor has lived there for 15 years and his money went to fund the new school that you will now enjoy?

No but you do not get Seniority over your neighbor either.

 

[FlyFlyFly]

Thanks for reminding me why I never want to be anywhere near anything resembling a labor union again. I had forgotten how everyone wants to leverage the masses to suit their needs. I would ratherr get by on my own merit, skills and knowledge than use the threat of mass action to force someone to submit to my demands. I guess one can get what they want that way, but the price seems a little high to me.

Best of luck in making all this work. I just hope it doesn't become another Eastern.
We don't need another thousand pilots on the street that want to go to work for slave wages to support a faulty business model that then see they made a bad decision and organize to force the company to give them what they didn't have the cajones to demand up front.

 

[CatYaaak]

My real position on the subject is that they should have a choice to make up back dues to date of hire and retain the seniority # their date of hire would hold or not pay back dues and get a seniority number based on when they did start paying dues. That leaves the choice up to them and it doesn't penalize the guys that have been paying dues all along. I imagine somehow AA, you'll still see that as unfair to those poor guys at NJI.
QUOTE]

What a load. Non-union types pay equivalent union dues while working for a closed shop company because they supposedly enjoy the benefit from a collectively-bargained contract and working conditions. In your case, however, the opposite is true...you get paid LESS than those guys, with worse QOL. You're in purely punitive mode. Like I said before..pathetic, smug, union thuggery that does nothing to improve your own sad condition.

Oh well, enjoy your temporary power trip and hope that NJA works out for you, because your attitude sure isn't going to get you hired anywhere else where people actually make a living. The aviation world is pretty small.

 

[Grizz]

The bottom line is that I have no say in this. It is a legal issue under the RLA and this one is as close to a slam dunk as it gets. The NJI guys had to know that when they signed on eventually they would be integrated. The had to realize that the NJA pilots were going to be in the power position when that happened. You can chastise me all you want but as far as I can tell, they made the poor decision to go there.

 

[CatYaaak]

The bottom line is that I have no say in this. It is a legal issue under the RLA and this one is as close to a slam dunk as it gets. The NJI guys had to know that when they signed on eventually they would be integrated. The had to realize that the NJA pilots were going to be in the power position when that happened. You can chastise me all you want but as far as I can tell, they made the poor decision to go there.

Well, if your whole world is viewed through a Union Prizm and nothing else, then it figures that's how you would see any decision. However, if your goal is to go to work as a pilot making a good salary, then there's no doubt which group made the poor decision...the unionized ones not being able to pay the bills locked into a crappy contract vs. the guys who made their own better deal in every respect.

You belong to the first group Griz, like it or not. Someone mentioned cajones before, or lack thereof, when signing on to work for someone offering slave wages then acting like someone "did it to them". If you didn't have any cajones then, no union will grow them for you later. THe only ones fooled into thinking it does are members of the 'Nad-less Choir you're preaching to.

 

[NJA Capt]

Some other things to consider:
To the nay-sayers, should ex NJA pilots that jumped ship to NJI for a BBD be given their original NJA seniority number when re-integrated? No.

Don't be naive that it's only the NJA guys that are salivating (or have something to gain). When NJI thought the G200s were going to Bluffton, I talked to several NJI FOs who were salivating at the chance for a Captains bid in the "smaller" airplane. Upgrades in the GIVs take too long.

Back dues for what? There are several things including their 7/7 schedules that were brought about by our side of the house.

 

[Grizz]

Not to mention the hotel committee - which ensures the quality of hotels they stay in, their current medical benefits, etc.

 

[gunfyter]

Mr Cat,

Let me explain something. IF NJI pilots were stapled to the bottom of the seniority list, what horrible fate would they face?

Right now they have NO possibility of holding any other type but the G-IV/V. Thats the reality today. They are already in the G-IV. They will stay in the G-IV. The only thing that seniority would mean to them is being able to bid the planes currently operated by NJA.

Npw I don't think they should be able to bid the BBJ or SSBJ before I do because if the companys are not merged they would NEVER get to do so anyway.

Nothing bad happens for them.

What happens for us is that the company cannot continue to treat us differently then they treat those in the Gulfstreams.

 

[semperfido]

Right now they have NO possibility of holding any other type but the G-IV/V. Thats the reality today. They are already in the G-IV. They will stay in the G-IV.

A possibility I would like. If I were one of them, that would be fine with me as I would have signed on to fly a g4/g5, not something else. I would be very content to stay in a g4/gv. I would also be discontented if I had to go from a g4/g5 to a cessna or something similar. Why don't you just leave them alone. For all your union talk it sure is funny how you can't wait to screw them over.

 

[650 driver]

I sure enjoy watching all you fractional guys get in these temper rages.

Hopefully you will suceed in driving the company in the ground,So the industry will go back to the way it was and real corporate pilots with real pay, can retain there old jobs back.

 

[CatYaaak]

Mr Cat,

Let me explain something. IFNJI pilots were stapled to the bottom of the seniority list, what horrible fate would they face?

Right now they have NO possibility of holding any other type but the G-IV/V. Thats the reality today. They are already in the G-IV. They will stay in the G-IV. The only thing that seniority would mean to them is being able to bid the planes currently operated by NJA.

Npw I don't think they should be able to bid the BBJ or SSBJ before I do because if the companys are not merged they would NEVER get to do so anyway.

Nothing bad happens for them.

What happens for us is that the company cannot continue to treat us differently then they treat those in the Gulfstreams.

Why on earth would they want to bid onto your airplanes at the lower (union-negotiated) wages you fly them for? They signed on to fly Gulfstreams, or are you suggesting none of them were qualified to get hired at NJA, so therefore had no choice to go there in the first place instead of NJI. And surely you don't beleive you'll get a raise up to their higher, non-union rates if this comes to fruition?

So what's the point?......punitive, plain and simple, and certainly isn't going to force NJA management into acceding to your demands on your issues. It does absolutely nothing to better the situation of NJA pilots, but only serves as a union-cudgel to stroke the power-trip egos who simply believe the entire world should be unionized no matter what the profession is. These are the same tunnel-visioned "Union always = Good" simpletons spouting feel-good rubbish that keeps them blind to the industry, castrates the ablity to negotiate a much better deal, and put you where you're at in the first place...the botton.

Well no matter. If it all works out the way you want and you get your sacrificial lambs...you force them to be unionized and extort money from whoever sticks around....you still won't have moved off square one regarding pay for yourselves. In a year your pointless "victory" will be forgotten, but the complaints about salary will remain. Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to buy groceries and pay the mortgage with that ablility to say "yay for us we're all union now!!!"

 

[Live4flyng]

Why on earth would they want to bid onto your airplanes at the lower (union-negotiated) wages you fly them for? They signed on to fly Gulfstreams, or are you suggesting none of them were qualified to get hired at NJA, so therefore had no choice to go there in the first place instead of NJI. And surely you don't beleive you'll get a raise up to their higher, non-union rates if this comes to fruition?

So what's the point?......punitive, plain and simple, and certainly isn't going to force NJA management into acceding to your demands on your issues. It does absolutely nothing to better the situation of NJA pilots, but only serves as a union-cudgel to stroke the power-trip egos who simply believe the entire world should be unionized no matter what the profession is. These are the same tunnel-visioned "Union always = Good" simpletons spouting feel-good rubbish that keeps them blind to the industry, castrates the ablity to negotiate a much better deal, and put you where you're at in the first place...the botton.

Well no matter. If it all works out the way you want and you get your sacrificial lambs...you force them to be unionized and extort money from whoever sticks around....you still won't have moved off square one regarding pay for yourselves. In a year your pointless "victory" will be forgotten, but the complaints about salary will remain. Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to buy groceries and pay the mortgage with that ablility to say "yay for us we're all union now!!!"

Just curious why you or any other corporate pilots would even care about us lowly fractional pilots? 650 Driver wants fractionals to be driven into the ground because he can't negotiate a better deal like you apparently have. Go back to the corporate threads Catpuke where you belong. Don't worry about us fractional pilots, we can figure everything out on our own. You don't work for a huge company with thousands of pilots or you would have a different perspective. Unless ofcourse you are a management stooge, then stick around for a good time.

 

[AA717driver]

How could you possibly think that anyone who went to work for NJI should have expected to be merged with NJA? I guess any 91 pilot should expect for his company to be bought out and to lose his job at some point. Any airline pilot should expect to be merged and stapled and furloughed.

Keep those rationalizations coming. Remember, with rationalizations, bigger is not necessarily better...

You are prepared to wreck a bunch of people's lives just to put pressure on NJ management in the hopes of getting a better contract.

Gunfyter--You expect us to believe that being "stuck" on the GIV or GV is a negative? I'm sure all those guys went to NJI in hopes of eventually being merged and getting their chance to fly a Citation. I'll refer you to the second paragraph above.

How long will it take for the NJA FO's sitting there, 5 years from upgrade, looking down the list on the NJI staplees flying CA on a GV before they start clammoring to hold their "rightful" seat? I can hear it now after the stapling, "it's only right that seniority should prevail".

How much seniority would you like? How much can you afford. The back dues scam is extortion, plain and simple. (APA is demanding back dues to the former TWA people who were forced to join the union after the recent contract mandated a closed shop. That's wrong too.)

Paint it however you like, it's still a hostile takeover with a staple job and a seat grab. Sleep well.TC

 

[650 driver]

Better deal? I can get a better deal down the street working at the grocery store.

650

 

[AA717driver]

Just curious why you or any other corporate pilots would even care about us lowly fractional pilots? .

I'll tell you why--because I got hosed in a merger and lost 12 years of seniority because the acquiring pilot group rationalized away my job. I will not sit idly by and watch another union screw another pilot group--whatever kind of aircraft they fly. If the Navy merges with the Marines and tries to staple them, I'll still stand up for the jarheads, too.

This is shaping up to be a f**k job and you all are doing whatever you can to salve your consciences ahead of time.TC

 

[GVFlyer]

GV - too late dude. Most of us saw your post anyway. Hope you like the new look of NJI in the next few months. I think you guys may be offered up by Santulli as his sacrificial lambs during the coming negotiations.

I don't work for NJI and never have. I can, however, recognize a premier organization where pilots and management work together to grow the company and take care of pilots. I was flying for Gulfstream Flight Test when the company was formed. Rick Schwartz and Peter Honchak did the initial interviews in offices in the Customer Lounge just accross the hall from Gulfstream Flight Ops. The pilots they hired have worked hard for 10 years to make NJI a great place to work.

I flew with them in the 90's. We had a couple of 1/8th shares and under NJI's rules the owning companies' pilots can fly in command on NJI aircraft as long as they meet NJI qualification and experience requirements as well as passing written, oral and flight checks. As such, I flew as a NJI Captain on our share aircraft for over a year and got to know many of the line pilots very well. I also know the Okatie leadership group from our efforts in initially establishing the EJI program as well as from working special joint projects with them. I think I have a pretty balanced view of the organization and it is my observation that the NJI pilots are a very happy group with things just as they are. They don't need or want your union.

The initial contract forged by Gulfstream and EJI was not any kind of a lever against NJA.The contract was a Bill Boisture - Richard Santulli deal. Forstmann and Santulli are too much alike to have gotten along easily. Gulfstream provided the first three "core" aircraft because Santulli could not capitalize the deal at that time. It was jointly decided that only well experienced Gulfstream pilots would be hired for the new venture in that safety was to be a key marketing point and buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified Gulfstream pilots. To draw and retain the kind of pilots desired, starting and subsequent salaries were set to be industry standard (and still are).


Within a year EJI was profitable enough to give back the original three core aircraft and purchase their own to replace them.


Gulfstream presently has maintenance, joint marketing and sales relationships with NJI. Gulfstream Shares sells Shares to existing Gulfstream customers and large cabin aircraft owners. NJI sells Gulfstream Shares to mid and small cabin aircraft owners as well as "Concept Buyers."

The existing relationship between NJI and Gulfstream is a close one. Raynor Reavis was VP for Gulfstream Shares, left Gulfstream to work with Keven Russell as Vice Presient for NetJets Sales, then returned to Gulfstream where he is presently Vice President Sales and Marketing.

My guess is that if NJA pushes hard enough, Berkshire Hathaway and General Dynamics / Gulfstream will find it mutually beneficial for GD / Gulfstream to purchase NJI in order to complete their marketing line-up just as Citation, Raytheon, Bombardier and other airframers have done. Gulfstream presently offers charter through Gulfstream Charter Sales, lease through GFS, small through large cabin aircraft with the G100, G150, G200, G350, G450, G500, G550 aircraft lines, but has no fractional company.

GV





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[gunfyter]

CAT and AA

I think I have been misunderstood. I am saying nothing bad happens to NJI. They are in the Gulfstreams they signed on for ... thats where they stay. Nothing changes for them. I do not see a problem. The only thing that happens is the company is forced to treat everyone the same. That is what is FAIR. One COMPANY ONE TEAM.

I personally dont care if there is a single carrier... All that has to happen is we get what we want on our side... and the company can do what they like over there.

Its all up to management. They can end all of this very easily. Just give us what we asked for.

 

[CatYaaak]

Just curious why you or any other corporate pilots would even care about us lowly fractional pilots? 650 Driver wants fractionals to be driven into the ground because he can't negotiate a better deal like you apparently have. Go back to the corporate threads Catpuke where you belong. Don't worry about us fractional pilots, we can figure everything out on our own. You don't work for a huge company with thousands of pilots or you would have a different perspective. Unless ofcourse you are a management stooge, then stick around for a good time.

Sure you can, I've been hearing, watching, and reading about you "figuring it out for yourselves" for about 15 years now. Watched you go from outright PFT to training contracts, listening to your giddiness in numerous crew lounges of becoming Teamsters, seen the fleet grow, read the glowing articles, but one thing has remained constant through time and changes; you keep agreeing to go to work for the lowest wages in business aviation. THen the whining begins, followed quickly by a persecution complex.

One day you're proclaiming you're "labor" and bang your anti-management drums, not afraid to pi$$ off who's in back due to beefs with your own real employer. On these days you're direct-revenue flying. The next day however, you morph and claim some kind of psuedo-corporate pilot status (declaring that you fly people "who can afford to pay more and doing the same job") because it suits your needs when demanding higher salaries, since you suddenly discover what NBAA salaries are. Conveniently, you forget those NBAA salaries have been gained through years of bargaining and holding out for more $$ on a strictly non-unionized basis by many individuals over a long period of time. Did you think they just magically got that way?

Now here on this thread and apparently in court, you're gunning for people who actually made a better deal, who got MORE from management like you wish you could, and whole point of contention is that they didn't do it your unionized way and therefore, somehow, "did something to you" in the process. I guess inventing a bad guy pilot group keeps the rah rah emotions running high in the union hall and those like Griz happy, but you're simply lashing out at those who obtained their deal the same way those NBAA salaries....the same ones you want.... were obtained. The way you didn't have the 'nads to do.

The biggest joke of revisionist history on this thread is the nonsense that EJI was formed as a "Lever" to be used against EJA's unionized pilot workforce. That whole "lever" scenario only works if a company brings in non-unionized workers to work for LESS pay than the unionized force, not more as was the case. They raised the wage bar for at least part of your outfit despite your unionized side's never-ending supply of people willing to work for next to nothing, who then later pretend they're gonna do something about it. Why would EJA/NJA management want to get rid of your union anyway?......you're the cheapest labor on the market and have been for over a decade.

The reason they got more $$$ was because EJI's requirements were Gulfstream experience (meaning PIC) demanded by Gulfstream, preferably with int'l ops. EJA couldn't supply those specific requirements from their own ranks, mostly being made up of with ex-Brasilia/Saab-turned-Citation pilots who'd seen plenty of ground between Atlanta and Macon, but that's about it. Besides the few ex-military Gstream pilots around, it remained to poach people with this experience from the ranks of corporate flight depts.

These typically weren't/aren't your gung-ho union types like you find bred in the commuter/regional airline world where most of EJAs pilots came from...they were already making good salaries they negotiated themselves, and most treated pretty well. The desire to have a schedule with hard days off was by far the biggest attraction for most of them if a livable salary was offered. They weren't there to get their first, or build, jet time to brush up their airline applications like most EJA pilots were.

You think I'm a management stooge? Perhaps you should step back and look more clearly at the situation. Which one of us made our respective employers happier in terms of beancounting? Me, who held out for enough $$$ and terms regarding QOL issues, or you, who willingly agreed to go work for substandard union contract wages your management can only smile at. Now which one of us is the stooge, and which one of us is happy?

 

[CatYaaak]

You don't work for a huge company with thousands of pilots or you would have a different perspective.

This is the funniest part of your post. It's like someone who shoots their own parents complaining "you just don't have any perspective on what it's like to be an orphan".

Or maybe it's more like saying "Thousands of lemmings can't be wrong in their perspective while running towards a cliff, following a sign/arrow pointing over the edge that reads "Gateway, Jets And A Schedule".

I'd suggest that if those same thousands of pilots had held a different perspective while deciding whether or not to accept your company's conditions for employment, either the company would not be so huge, or the pilots would be happier.

 

[Grizz]

My guess is that if NJA pushes hard enough, Berkshire Hathaway and General Dynamics / Gulfstream will find it mutually beneficial for GD / Gulfstream to purchase NJI in order to complete their marketing line-up just as Citation, Raytheon, Bombardier and other airframers have done. Gulfstream presently offers charter through Gulfstream Charter Sales, lease through GFS, small through large cabin aircraft with their G100, G150, G200, G350, G450, G500, G550 aircraft lines, but has no fractional company.

GV

If that type of relationship had existed from the start, none of us would have the heartache we do over this. But it's not that way. We interfly NJI passengers seamlessly under part 91. They do ours the same way. Marquis Jet sells cards under both programs seamlessly. Until recently, a significant amount of NJI support was conducted out of Bridgeway. This was and is one company with two pilot employee groups. One union and one non-union. Say what you want, it's against the law to have that happen and now that we've got some elected leaders with balls, it's going to stop.