Net Jets QOL

[realityman]

Sorry, but have to put my .02 worth in on this one.


Live4, I've been at NJA for 8 years now, and never had a tour like the one you've described. I agree that it is POSSIBLE, and that there are, no doubt, more than a few crews flying tours like that, but is it a TYPICAL tour at NJA? I don't think so. I'm on the Citation X, one of the busiest fleets we have. Flew my ever-loving butt off over the week of New Year's!!! And I still didn't have a tour like you described. I guess that still leaves the question that if they tried to assign you a tour like that, why wouldn't you call in fatigued at some point? It's a fair question.

BeenThere, I agree that there's PLENTY of room for improvement at NJA (even not including salary which has pretty much been beaten to death here at FlightInfo), but in what ways is the QOL so bad? The days can be long, but are never more than 14 hours (assuming you stand up to the company and shut it down at that point). We stay in very nice places most of the time (except when the best hotels truly aren't available, which is rare). We keep our hotel points and airline miles. Crew food is plentiful and of good quality (never heard anyone ever complain of losing weight after starting work with us!). We are REQUIRED to have 10 hours of rest, and if you find your rest being shorted due to late hotel vans, poor check-in procedures, noisy hotel guests, whatever, then you have the option of telling (not asking) the company to give you additional rest. You cannot be extended on the 7/7 schedule, can only be extended once a month for one day on the 17-day schedule, and can generally count on being home after 7 days max on the flex schedule (not to mention having 3 schedules to choose from!). NJA has never failed to get me home mid-tour if a serious problem has developed back at home. While scheduling and owner services does from time to time try to second-guess my decisions, I've never had a program manager do that to me (and that's where it really counts!). Our minimums for getting in and out of the tricky airports tend to be a good deal higher than most other operators (including the airlines). I've NEVER had the company call me on one of my days off and ask me to come to work (unlike the last outfit I flew for). They've never questioned me when I've called in sick, or failed to send me home mid-tour if I call in sick while working. Heck, they don't even ask what's wrong with me. Just call back when you feel better!

Okay, I'm sure you could print a list equally long (if not longer) of areas where Netjets tries to hose you. I believe I already stated that there's still PLENTY of room for improvement, but it's really not a bad place to work (notice I'm still not bringing salary into it). After JB and SWA, I'd like to hear about any other companies (aviation) that treat you as well as NJA does. And before the accusations start, I voted a big fat NO on the contract we were offered, and a huge YES for SU. I donate money to them, and will be ready and willing to do what it takes to continue improving things at Netjets for the pilots. I just thought someone should shed some light on the GOOD things over there for a change!

Sometimes you have to stop and look at what you have, instead of just at what you don't have!

 

[Heavy Set]

Sorry, but have to put my .02 worth in on this one.


Live4, I've been at NJA for 8 years now, and never had a tour like theone you've described. I agree that it is POSSIBLE, and that there are,no doubt, more than a few crews flying tours like that, but is it aTYPICAL tour at NJA? I don't think so. I'm on the Citation X, one ofthe busiest fleets we have. Flew my ever-loving butt off over the weekof New Year's!!! And I still didn't have a tour like you described. Iguess that still leaves the question that if they tried to assign you atour like that, why wouldn't you call in fatigued at some point? It's afair question.

BeenThere, I agree that there's PLENTY of room for improvement at NJA(even not including salary which has pretty much been beaten to deathhere at FlightInfo), but in what ways is the QOL so bad? The days canbe long, but are never more than 14 hours (assuming you stand up to thecompany and shut it down at that point). We stay in very nice placesmost of the time (except when the best hotels truly aren't available,which is rare). We keep our hotel points and airline miles. Crew foodis plentiful and of good quality (never heard anyone ever complain oflosing weight after starting work with us!). We are REQUIRED to have 10hours of rest, and if you find your rest being shorted due to latehotel vans, poor check-in procedures, noisy hotel guests, whatever,then you have the option of telling (not asking) the company to giveyou additional rest. You cannot be extended on the 7/7 schedule, canonly be extended once a month for one day on the 17-day schedule, andcan generally count on being home after 7 days max on the flex schedule(not to mention having 3 schedules to choose from!). NJA has neverfailed to get me home mid-tour if a serious problem has developed backat home. While scheduling and owner services does from time to time tryto second-guess my decisions, I've never had a program manager do thatto me (and that's where it really counts!). Our minimums for getting inand out of the tricky airports tend to be a good deal higher than mostother operators (including the airlines). I've NEVER had the companycall me on one of my days off and ask me to come to work (unlike thelast outfit I flew for). They've never questioned me when I've calledin sick, or failed to send me home mid-tour if I call in sick whileworking. Heck, they don't even ask what's wrong with me. Just call backwhen you feel better!

Okay, I'm sure you could print a list equally long (if not longer) ofareas where Netjets tries to hose you. I believe I already stated thatthere's still PLENTY of room for improvement, but it's really not a badplace to work (notice I'm still not bringing salary into it). After JBand SWA, I'd like to hear about any other companies (aviation) thattreat you as well as NJA does. And before the accusations start, Ivoted a big fat NO on the contract we were offered, and a huge YES forSU. I donate money to them, and will be ready and willing to do what ittakes to continue improving things at Netjets for the pilots. I justthought someone should shed some light on the GOOD things over therefor a change!

Sometimes you have to stop and look at what you have, instead of just at what you don't have!

Great post. I have a number of friends at NJA who agree thatwhile not perfect (especially from a pay standpoint), many aspects ofthe job are enjoyable. Not one of my friends there has anyintention on leaving (which says a lot) - unless the pay situation getsworse... Hopefully a new contract will take care of things.

 

[Live4flyng]

I guess that still leaves the question that if they tried to assign you a tour like that, why wouldn't you call in fatigued at some point? It's a fair question.

I already answered it, please refer to post #7 where I clearly said "I do" call in tired. Scheduling will assign days like that, it is up to the crew to put the breaks on.

Our minimums for getting in and out of the tricky airports tend to be a good deal higher than most other operators (including the airlines)

Not sure if I agree with this statement though. How are our minimums a good deal higher than the airlines for getting into "the tricky airports"? With the exception of night operations at mountain airports, our minimums are part 91 or charted minimums for mountain airports unless we are operating 135. Look up Aspen on our mountain chart and you will see it says refer to the chart. Getting out usually depends on aircraft performance and wx.

 

[realityman]

Live4,

Yeah, I guess you're right about the 135 stuff. I was thinking more along the lines of our published mountain ops. But you're forgetting one important factor- crew comfort level. It doesn't matter what any chart says, if I'm not comfortable with it, the flight isn't happening. Try that excuse at an airline or your typical charter outfit! For the most part (but not always), Netjets doesn't push it. How many times have you heard our pax complaining that we're not leaving while watching other private jets and the airlines takeoff? I know it's happened to me many times.

And yes, you did say you will call in fatigued. My bad. However, it was your description of the "typical" tour at NJA that I took exception to. I've been in the Ultra fleet, Citation VII fleet, and a long time in the Citation X fleet and I have yet to get a whole tour like what you described. Yes, I know the company will try to push that schedule on A FEW crews here and there, but I stand by what I said in that it's not a "typical" NJA tour. And I don't know any crew that would actually fly that schedule. They'd be calling in fatigued and getting extra rest.

And for everyone else reading this thread, I do not claim to speak for anyone but myself. If we have any pilots who Live4's description is a "typical" tour, then I can understand some of the pure vitriol out there amongst some of our pilots. My apologies to anyone who may have construed my remarks as doubting that those tours happen.

 

[TurboJetCpt]

Thanks again for the info. Realistic or not I at least have an idea of at least one pilots view and opinion. I appreciate the facts and no sugar coating. Overall sounds like morale is good at Net Jets. Thanks again ....Keep the info coming...good stuff here.

MORALE IS NOT GOOD. WHERE DID YOU GET THIS FROM ??? Now if you ask one of the 300 YES voters on the last TA, they will tell you that they are in ABSOLUTE HEAVEN !!! LOSERS !!!

 

[1-tacan-rule]

I can add RealityMan...

...to my list of NJ pilots I have known or met who claim the same experience with your company.

Live4: You may indeed have experienced a schedule which is not the norm at your company. I do (as a colleague, and soon, possible CP of yours) feel for that situation. My question to you is: Do you have apps out? What will it take to leave NJ and go elsewhere (specifically, which companies would you leave for?). Or, is it rough at NJ but at least you know the beast?

 

[Live4flyng]

...to my list of NJ pilots I have known or met who claim the same experience with your company.

Live4: You may indeed have experienced a schedule which is not the norm at your company. I do (as a colleague, and soon, possible CP of yours) feel for that situation. My question to you is: Do you have apps out? What will it take to leave NJ and go elsewhere (specifically, which companies would you leave for?). Or, is it rough at NJ but at least you know the beast?

You have alot to learn about NJA my friend. First of all, I doubt you will be my Chief Pilot. I am pleased to hear you are safety conscious, it's very important in this business.

Back to my original post, I used the words "may" and "plan". They guy was asking for a comparison between the airlines flying 8 hours and getting our butts kicked. I told him we look at it more from a leg standpoint and duty hours, not flight hours. This is the last time I am going to post this, so read carefully. If you work the 7/7 schedule, you have a contractual obligation to be available for duty starting at 0001 on your first day until 2400 on your last day 14 hours of duty with 10 hours off. If you plan on anything else such as showing at 1000 on your first day, getting a couple of standby days on the road and returning home by 1500 on your last day you will be very disappointed when it doesn't happen. Can the company schedule you to work a 14 hour duty day? ANSWER IS YES! Can they make you show up at the FBO 10 hours after you are shutdown? ANSWER IS YES! Do they schedule 14/10s? ANSWER IS YES! Can you call in fatigued? ANSWER IS YES! Can you call in tired everyday? That is up to you. Are you going to work 14/10 every single day? Probably not. Will you work 12-14 hour days? Probably so. Should you be prepared for 14 hour duty days? Our contract says you do. Unless you are too tired.

As far as having Apps out, NO. This is my last flying job, I will do something else and let this industry consume itself. Have you ever heard of the saying "The buck stops here"? That is exactly how I feel. Aviation is screwed up and I am not running off to greener pastures when the going gets tough. I plan on standing and fighting. I am willing to strike and lose my job if necessary for us to get what is fair. I am all done chasing the pot of gold to find out it's not there thanks to incompetent and corrupt management.

 

[yankee]

Thanks for the info. Good to hear some positives for a change.

What other types of schedules are out there besides the 7 and 7 at netjets.

any other typical day kind of stories?

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Diesel]

Typical day all week has been. 8am show 930 go. Florida to TEB back to florida.

We did that all week. 7.5hrs of flying 12hrs of duty.

Missed the snow though.

Airlining home tomorrow.

 

[Fracster]

Nutjets also has the 17 day schedule and the flex schedule.

The 17 day means you work 17 days a month total. Usually 5 or 6 days on and 4 or 5 days off with 6 days on being the maximum. A lot of times I get 4 on/ 3 off which I like. Some guys hate it because they would rather be gone longer and be home longer. This schedule comes out 15 days prior to the end of the month and this is the schedule most people are on. Only the flex and the 7/7 are bid. You are automaticaly assigned the 17 day.

The flex mean you can work up 19 or 21 days but you dont know what days in advance. You call in each afternoon for the next day so you are basically "on a pager". You make and extra 10 grand on this schedule and it cannot be asigned to you.

It all boils down to preference. I would prefer an airline schedule rather than what we have so for me this place sucks. Some guys love the 7/7 so for them it is perfect. (schedule wise only)

Before you make any descisions make sure you know what you are getting into.

 

[1-tacan-rule]

Didn't mean to offend...

Live4:

CP meant co-pilot, not Chief Pilot. Obviously I couldn't be your Chief Pilot if I haven't landed on property yet...but your mistake is understandable since you are run ragged on such a rough schedule .

 

[beechjetpilot1]

You are a tool

Live4:

CP meant co-pilot, not Chief Pilot. Obviously I couldn't be your Chief Pilot if I haven't landed on property yet...but your mistake is understandable since you are run ragged on such a rough schedule .

I hope I NEVER fly with you.....Your attitude is horrid. I have had the displeasure of flying with several SIC's with a know-it-all attitude. If you are lucky enough to "land on property", hopefully you will be respectful of your senior pilots. QOL gets worse with each passing month. Shedules are horrible, pay is low, and you are worked to the point of exhaustion on nearly every tour. Slow down with the calling people liars and listen to what people tell you. Maybe all week with 14 and 10's is unrealistic, but not that far off. When you count on the hotel shuttle being late, trying to find dinner, ironing your shirt, calling the wife and kids and trying to wind down after a stressfull day, knowing you will be called at 0300 for a "pop-up" trip, you try and get good rest and be in a good mood. Then multiply that by the number of days you are on the road. To add insult to injury, you have to ride in the back of an airline on either end getting sneezed on and coughed on in your middle seat by the guy sitting next to you.

 

[realityman]

Sheesh Beechjet, take a pill! Have a drink. Do some d@&) thing! Tacan's parting comment was obviously tongue-in-cheek (did you miss the smiley at the end?). I hope you are utilizing your vacation time wisely because you seem a little stressed.

And "know-it-all" co-pilots can be corrected simply by showing them what they don't know. But captains who DEMAND respect instead of EARNING it are much harder to deal with. And flying with pilots (captains or co-pilots) with no sense of humor isn't a real treat either. I hope for Tacan's sake, as a new pilot on the premises, that he doesn't fly with you.

We need everyone to work together to forge a better Netjets,and you're tearing down someone who hasn't even started his/her first day with us yet!

And what constitutes a good QOL is very subjective, depending on the individual. I've already pointed out a lot of the GOOD things at NJA which makes for a nice QOL. Can it be better? YES!!!! Will I fight alongside my fellow pilots to make it better? YES!!!! But it's not all bad, and Tacan will have to form his/her own opinion about the NJA QOL works for him.

 

[been-there]

The days can be long, but are never more than 14 hours (assuming you stand up to the company and shut it down at that point). We stay in very nice places most of the time (except when the best hotels truly aren't available, which is rare). We keep our hotel points and airline miles. Crew food is plentiful and of good quality (never heard anyone ever complain of losing weight after starting work with us!). We are REQUIRED to have 10 hours of rest, and if you find your rest being shorted due to late hotel vans, poor check-in procedures, noisy hotel guests, whatever, then you have the option of telling (not asking) the company to give you additional rest. You cannot be extended on the 7/7 schedule, can only be extended once a month for one day on the 17-day schedule, and can generally count on being home after 7 days max on the flex schedule (not to mention having 3 schedules to choose from!).

OK Dude, whatever you have to tell yourself that NetJets doesn't suck is up to you. But the above list is pretty pathetic. You forgot to mention all the celebs you meet.

For the new guys. Remember that lifers will not admit their job sucks. NetJets sucks. It will need more than BB to make it a good place. It really needs a management change in New Jersey.

 

[realityman]

Okay Been-There. I'd conceed your point except you still haven't really said specifically what sucks at NJA. Heck, I'll start you off: PAY!!!

As for the rest of it, no job is perfect. It's the process that matters. Are we trying to improve it or just accepting the status quo? I'm trying to improve it. But I'd love to hear what you would do to make this a better place. So far all you've done is complain that it sucks without really getting into specifics. At least I listed some areas where it's pretty good.

I might add how many of the airline guys (and girls) who make very good $$$ will still bitch and complain that they hate the job. I've flown with many of them who had nothing but bad things to say about their former airline employers (retired guys included, not just the bitter furloughed ones) even though they made good coin. Money certainly makes the homelife nice, but apparently doesn't necessarily make a crummy job more palatable.

And you make it sound bad to be a "lifer" at NJA. Personally, moving from job to job constantly in search of that "perfect" job is tiring and difficult. I've tried it. Now I think I'll be a "lifer" and work to make things better at NJA. You gotta take a stand sometime.

But everyone has their own opinion of how life is for them at NJA. If you're really that miserable, then I truly do wish you luck in finding something better, or at least something you'll be happier at. Life's too short to spend so much of it being unhappy!

 

[been-there]

Realtyman, let me apologize. I am sorry for slamming you. You seem like a level headed guy. With the anonymous nature of this board sometimes I write things that are not in the best of taste.

Back to NetJets. There are better jobs and there are worse jobs. I am thankful to be employed by them. Now, on to the minuses:

1.Pay. It is comparable to the regionals.
2.Training. We do a lot, but most of it is worthless.
3.Line Flying. Captains who never swap pax legs, even with co-captains.
4.Local 284.
5.Scheduling.
6.Lack of sleep.
7.Self disclosures.
8.Training Contract.
9.5 year FO pay scale.
10. Airlining.
11. The total CYA mentality on the road.

 

[On Your Six]

Realtyman, let me apologize. I am sorry for slamming you. You seem like a level headed guy. With the anonymous nature of this board sometimes I write things that are not in the best of taste.

Back to NetJets. There are better jobs and there are worse jobs. I am thankful to be employed by them. Now, on to the minuses:

1.Pay. It is comparable to the regionals.
2.Training. We do a lot, but most of it is worthless.
3.Line Flying. Captains who never swap pax legs, even with co-captains.
4.Local 284.
5.Scheduling.
6.Lack of sleep.
7.Self disclosures.
8.Training Contract.
9.5 year FO pay scale.
10. Airlining.
11. The total CYA mentality on the road.

I seriously hope you have your applications out to AirTran, AWA, SWA, JetBlue, Fedex, UPS and the others that seem to be hiring (for now at least) because life is TOO SHORT to be so unhappy...

With regard to pay, never expect it to be that good again unless you get to Fedex or UPS. If you go to JetBlue, you might start on the E190 in a few months time and get paid $29 per hour as an FO - not so great... Fifth year Captain on the E190 at JetBlue pays $77 per hour. Don't expect other starting positions at most of the airlines to be so great in terms of pay either. The glory days are over.

Hopefully with an improved contract and maybe some management changes at NJA, both pay and QOL will improve (pay certainly must improve big time). Good luck.

 

[1-tacan-rule]

Beech....ouch!

First, allow me to respond to your comments, sir, oh holy Capt, my god of gods (or however else you would like me to address you PIC sir):

I hope I NEVER fly with you.....Your attitude is horrid. I have had the displeasure of flying with several SIC's with a know-it-all attitude If by "know it all attitudes" you mean someone who won't let you (the Capt) KILL THEM by not knowing when to tell the boss you had enough...."must rest," the belive me, I hope I don't ever fly with you either . If you are lucky enough Why would you say that I am "lucky enough" to land on property when you then biatchh ad-nauseum about how much it suxxss. to "land on property", hopefully you will be respectful of your senior pilots. QOL gets worse with each passing month. Shedules are horrible, pay is low, and you are worked to the point of exhaustion on nearly every tour. Slow down with the calling people liars Read the post, I gave Live4 the option of admitting he was a liar, a company man, or someone who doesn't know his limits...I didn't call him a liar. and listen to what people tell you I have: and 90% of the people I know or have met face to face totally contradict the gloom/doom/sweatshop experience that some of these people (and you ) have been spewing. Maybe all week with 14 and 10's is unrealistic, but not that far off. When you count on the hotel shuttle being late,Whaaa! trying to find dinner,Whaa! ironing your shirt,Whaa!! calling the wifeWha!! and kids Wha!!!and trying to wind down after a stressfull day,Whass!! knowing you will be called at 0300 for a "pop-up" trip,Okay, ready for this: my BEST friend who is an Ultra Capt told me that in five years this has happened to him less than 10 TIMES!! you try and get good rest and be in a good mood. Then multiply that by the number of days you are on the road. wha!! look at the numbers. Unless you are working corporate where you do alot of out and ins, you will always be gone about half the month: JB, Airtran, United,etc. To add insult to injury, you have to ride in the back of an airline on either end getting sneezed on and coughed on in your middle seat by the guy sitting next to you.which you would have to do ON YOUR OWN time if yo commute to your airline job which statistics shows are MOST airline pilots.

Listen, my comment from my last post was meant as a joke. Please don't be hatin'. I chose to work for NJ mainly based on the input from my friends which is totally contrary to the BS you are putting out.

An old airline pilot once told me that if pilots had to go to work one day a month, and that was just to pick up their checks....they'd complain about the traffic. NOW, I see what he meant.

 

[njwingman]

In over 6 years, I have never broken 450 hours of flying in a year.

In over 6 years, I have, several times.

 

[dime line]

1-tacan-rule......from you previous post you really sound like the cream of the crop in the military, a real yes sir kinda guy. You will learn how it is here in the Fractionals, best friend or not you will get called at 3am, you will fly more than 500hrs per year, and you will be a copilot for at least 5 years at the lovely copilot pay. So enjoy.