Net Jets International (EJI, Gulfstreams)

[FL510GV]

G-IV/G-V/G-550 guys/gals?

How's life been over the past couple of years? Schedule (6/5 or 7/7, how often do you actually fly all the days you're on)? Company? People? Atmosphere? New Contract? Where's it going? Any truth to the NJA/NJI merger rumors? Anything else that you think I might want to know.

 

[Muddauber]

It's not a "merger". It's called a single carrier petition. Look for it in the near future.

As to the "contract", the NJI guys don't currently operate under a contract. They are at-will employees without any protection. Unfortunately, they will find out what that means shortly. They will get coverage under a CBA, but probably not under the ideal conditions since NJA pilots will dictate the terms. It's been a good ride but it's coming to an end.

Just curious...

Why would you want to force a group of pilots into a union that vigorously don't want anything to do with unions?

Muddy

 

[Jack Schitt]

Because they want to force the NJI guys to take a bite out of the same schitt sandwich they'll be eating in a couple months.

 

[zman300]

Because they want to force the NJI guys to take a bite out of the same schitt sandwich they'll be eating in a couple months.

A-MEN! Maybe they ought to worry about what the Teamsters are doing for them (or is that "aren't?") before they start worrying about what they'll do to the folks at NJI. Tsk tsk; such un-called for bitterness! If only some of the A guys understood many on the I side are actually sympathetic to their cause (not that they want a union, of course).

Last I heard, from an NJA guy who confronted me at Dulles back in April, we were merged, and one big, happy family, as of July 2004. Get the point?

 

[zman300]

Back to the original question...

G-IV/G-V/G-550 guys/gals?

How's life been over the past couple of years? Schedule (6/5 or 7/7, how often do you actually fly all the days you're on)? Company? People? Atmosphere? New Contract? Where's it going? Any truth to the NJA/NJI merger rumors? Anything else that you think I might want to know.

Merger rumors are pretty much dead as far as the I side is concerned; I guess some A guys still think it'll still happen. Whatever...we'll cross that bridge when it really becomes an issue. Schedules still haven't changed, in spite of thoughts we might all be getting on 7/7; who knows if it'll happen, but I'm not betting on it. Company's still great (not to say it's perfect, of course); people are still great; we're hiring again; upgrades are still slow, but FO pay isn't shabby; pay raises will be modest for the forseeable future. And I dare not tell how many days I actually work on the road on average 'cause somebody might get a little upset, but most people do nothing but airline on their 1st and last days.

 

[Muddauber]

Mudd,

When did you fly T-43s? I was at MHR between 89 and 92.

Check PM.

 

[GVFlyer]

Let's see. RTS started NJI just to poke our union in the eye. Unfortunately, the union guys that were in charge at the time weren't smart enough to just say no. That situation will be rectified in the near future.

But to answer your question, RTS makes sure that the NJI guys always have just a little bit better deal than we do. It's his way of tweaking the union every chance he gets. We're not so much concerned about adding a bunch of pilots "that vigorously don't want anything to do with unions" but ridding ourselves of an irritant put in place to undermine our scope.

Not true. Gulfstream is the reason NJI is non-union. When NJI was formed in early 1995, Richard Santulli could not capitalize the venture. Gulfstream, under Bill Boisture's leadership, provided the original three core aircraft. As a condition of the contract, Gulfstream insisted that only experienced Gulfstream pilots be allowed to fly the aircraft at NJI. Rick Schwartz interviewed pilots for NJI's initial cadre in an office in the Customer Lounge adjacent to Gulfstream Flight Operations. Safety is tantamount at Gulfstream and the company wanted to protect their corporate image.

Lee Monson at Boeing made no such requirement for the six aircraft (now 3) they provided to NetJets. Boeing, however, has ended their relationship with NetJets. Gulfstream and NetJets remain marketing partners - Gulfstream sells shares to current Gulfstream and large cabin operators while NetJets sells Gulfstreams to mid- and small cabin operators as well as concept buyers.

Pay at NJI is determined by market conditions and is comparable to corporate positions.

GV

 

[CatYaaak]

Let's see. RTS started NJI just to poke our union in the eye. Unfortunately, the union guys that were in charge at the time weren't smart enough to just say no. That situation will be rectified in the near future.

But to answer your question, RTS makes sure that the NJI guys always have just a little bit better deal than we do. It's his way of tweaking the union every chance he gets. We're not so much concerned about adding a bunch of pilots "that vigorously don't want anything to do with unions" but ridding ourselves of an irritant put in place to undermine our scope.

Wow, talk about revisionist history. Most of the qualified Gulfstream guys who went to NJI took pay cuts compared to the corporate jobs they had in return for a schedule. The pay scale offered had everything to do with being able to keep it competetive enough to attract them...nothing to do with "tweaking" your little union and the POS wages you agreed to fly citations, hawkers, and beechjets for...that foundation had already been laid. Basically, they wouldn't have come to work at all for pay based on a graduated scale of what EJA would have started them at.

Trying to force NJI pilots into your union is nothing more than bitterness against guys who were able to demand higher salaries based on thier higher qualifications in type and experience in international ops compared to EJA/NJA guys who mostly came from the ranks of commuter airlines at that time. See the previous post of why Gulfstream wouldn't want that kind of exposure.

 

[Majik]

Yak,

The company recently provided our MEC with the financial health of the entire company. NJA is marginally profitable. NJI has been consistently losing money, year after year. The parent has been funding NJI's losses and expenses (including NJI pilot's higher salaries) with the profits from NJA. Those profits have come about partially because the parent chose to pay NJA pilots significantly lower pay.

Let's say I have twin 12 year old sons. I give one son $100/week allowance, the other son I only give $40. The $100 son is a drain on my budget and always keeps me in the red. The $40 son takes an after-school job and actually provides positive income for the family. After awhile the $40 son will become unhappy that he is being slighted by the parent, and will demand a fair increase in his allowance.


My point is that I think that it's unfair for the parent to reward one son more than the other. If a judge rules that NJI and NJA operations are similar enough to be combined into a single company under a legal ruling, then so be it. If that's what it takes for me to keep a fair share of the money I've worked to earn for this company, then that's what it takes.

 

[CatYaaak]

Yak -

Honestly, go away. No one cares what you have to say on this board. You don't fly for a fractional. Your contempt for fractional pilots clouds all of your posts and because of that, we couldn't give a rat's ass about your opinion on things. Your thoughts are as inconsequential to us as a fart in a whirlwind. Run on along...we don't need or want you here. If you decide to keep posting it won't matter to me. I've decided to just put you on ignore. There's absolutely nothing you could post that I'd need to see.

I hold no contempt for frac pilots, but if you can't deal with and learn from the facts of history, so be it, you're doomed to repea it. I rather doubt you were around in the frac or corp world when your company coming into it's own. The lesson here Griz (a little research on the civ av world would have helped you perhaps) is don't take a lousy-paying job, especially based on some pie-in-the-sky union rhetoric, then whine about others who DIDN'T fall for it and struck a better deal on their own like over at NJI. Accepting the job offer in the first place, as far as any employer is concerned, is tantamount to voting "yes" on what is offered...that's not hard to understand. Been there, done that, turned bad offers down more than once (including your company's) and took the good ones....that's how the game is played in the business world and why salaries rise.

If you want to keep applying airline-style answers and mentality to business aviation situations, you're doomed to keep floundering. Don't you get it? (to put it in terms you might understand)....in effect, you're the LCC of business aviation, and your fight for substantially-higher wages is a fight against the very economic model that made you successful in your niche, not to mention against your frac competition. Good luck if you can change that model, and I mean that sincerely. You shouldn't be punished forever for not educating yourself on the market you were entering.

 

[Majik]

Yak,
Using your logic, nobody should have ever taken the 1st airline job, because the pay used to be horrific. Using your logic, pilots at regionals should stop their efforts to increase wages because they have historically paid low salaries. You seem to see most situations as hopeless unless someone has previously blazed the trail ahead of you and fought the fight you are not willing to even attempt.

The problem isn't "if the company can afford the salaries." They can, and it won't seriously effect their bottom line. The problem is convincing the company that they have little choice but to fund adequate pilot salaries. To date they have never been forced to have to make that choice.

Although most of us did buy into the MEC's rosey promise of NBAA comparable wages, we still have a very good chance to improve salaries significantly. One thing that is necessary to effect those changes is for the entire group to unify and support our negotiators. The problem for the last 3 years has been that our negotiators never unified the group by setting and keeping firm expectations. They were confident they could do better if they negotiated in secrecy. They never enlisted any outside help until the last minute, and lost confidence in their bargaining power and the support of the pilots they represented. We now have a second chance coming up with the new slate of negotiators. Only time will tell whether they will be more successful than the last group, but heck, they can't do much worse.

Sure, it would have been utopic is nobody would have ever taken the first job at NJA until the company offered a fair wage but that never happened. The bad news is that there are very few jobs available to go to. But the good news is that there are very few jobs available to go to, so we stand a better chance of unifying the group and making a stand that will have to be taken seriously.

Oh yeah, and if you don't think Santulli is pleased to flaunt NJI in the faces of the collective bargaining side of the company every chance he gets, then you are the one that needs an education. Just like my analogy in my earlier thread about the allowance, we intend to attempt to make the parent treat everyone fairly.

 

[da90drivr]

Maybe I am missing something here, nut how does dragging the NJI pilots into the NJA system help you? They operate an airframe type that NJA does not and there are far fewer of them than you.

It sounds like a seniority grab to me. An excuse for a few 'senior' people to fly a bigger airplane.

Maybe I am missing something.

 

[Majik]

Just curious...

Why would you want to force a group of pilots into a union that vigorously don't want anything to do with unions?

Muddy

I think it's the planes we are after, not the pilots. I think it's a question of scope. Yes, there is bitterness here at NJA that was generated from the difference in treatment by Santulli to the NJA pilots and that has a lot to do with it also. There's bitterness that NJA is profitable and NJI is not, and NJI is enjoying being Santulli's pet while NJA is treated like the red-headed step-child. The company cries poor while they reward the subsidiary that is losing the most and funds NJI pilot's salaries on the backs of the lower paid NJA pilots. Somehow that doesn't seem fair to me.

 

[SkyGirl]

Maybe I am missing something here, nut how does dragging the NJI pilots into the NJA system help you? They operate an airframe type that NJA does not and there are far fewer of them than you.

It sounds like a seniority grab to me. An excuse for a few 'senior' people to fly a bigger airplane.

Maybe I am missing something.

Finally, the real story comes out...

 

[Muddauber]

I think it's the planes we are after, not the pilots. I think it's a question of scope. Yes, there is bitterness here at NJA that was generated from the difference in treatment by Santulli to the NJA pilots and that has a lot to do with it also. There's bitterness that NJA is profitable and NJI is not, and NJI is enjoying being Santulli's pet while NJA is treated like the red-headed step-child. The company cries poor while they reward the subsidiary that is losing the most and funds NJI pilot's salaries on the backs of the lower paid NJA pilots. Somehow that doesn't seem fair to me.

Just curious...I have friends at NJI, guys I flew with in the Big Blue...

What would you do with their pilots that have been there since day one - staple them to the bottom of the seniority list or merge them? Would they then be moved to whatever jet their seniority number could hold if you merged or to the Citations if you didn't?

Muddy

 

[On Your Six]

Maybe I am missing something here, nut how does dragging the NJI pilots into the NJA system help you? They operate an airframe type that NJA does not and there are far fewer of them than you.

It sounds like a seniority grab to me. An excuse for a few 'senior' people to fly a bigger airplane.

Maybe I am missing something.

The GIV and GV are operated alongside the regular fleet in Europe - why not in the US? NJA operates BBJs - why not the Gulfstreams too? Flight Options operates GIVs in its fleet alongside smaller aircraft. Divide and conquer is the strategy employed and it does not make sense operationally - why have an overlap? I am sure some of the Gulfstream guys would love to fly a BBJ...

 

[da90drivr]

Gunfyter,

I think your logic may be a little flawed here, NJA is a union shop - you will get nothing that you do not negotiate. (browse the regional /major airline sections of this board)
You operate under a collective agreement negotiated by your union and the company. The company is not withholding benefits given to other employees, your union just failed to have them added into your contract.

By your reasoning if the company allows for flight attendants to stay at 5 star hotels reguardless of cost the pilots should stay at the same hotel. CBAs and unions don't work that way.

Just my opinion.

Mudd man

Its not likely the suit would go to integration unless that is what the company wants. All we want is to be paid and be treated properly. All the company has to do is pay us right and not withhold benefits they give to the non-union side of the house and this will all be a non-issue.

 

[da90drivr]

So I f I understand you correctly because you can't get what you want from the company you will go after another pilot group and screw them to make yourself feel better?

Scope is a pretty weak argument too, NJI = separate company (same parent)different mission, different owners. How will you control the EJM flying? Don't they provide supplemental lift for NJA and NJI? What are you willing to give up to get scope? Pay? Work rules?

I am still interested in your answer to my original question - How do you benefit from 'merging' the two groups? They get stapled, take a pay cut and and possibly lose their seat. You keep the same pay rate, get a few planes,maybe move up a few numbers on the list and the biggest bonus of all....you get a group of pissed off pilots (think AA / TWA).

It might be more productive to focus on improving your situation using the RLA to your advantage. Management loves to play employee groups off one another. It takes the pressure off them.

That's all for now, look forward to your response.

90

That is part of the negotiation... to obtain what we want. Its called hardball. We cannot strike because of RLA... So a nice shot in the face is a Single Carrier suit.

 

[Majik]

I think your logic may be a little flawed here, NJA is a union shop - you will get nothing that you do not negotiate. (browse the regional /major airline sections of this board)
You operate under a collective agreement negotiated by your union and the company. The company is not withholding benefits given to other employees, your union just failed to have them added into your contract.

I am still interested in your answer to my original question - How do you benefit from 'merging' the two groups?

It might be more productive to focus on improving your situation using the RLA to your advantage. Management loves to play employee groups off one another. It takes the pressure off them.

That's all for now, look forward to your response.

You are absolutely right; we will get nothing that we do not negotiate.
NJA is a union shop.
Company gives preferential treatment to non-union pilots.
We must use the tools available to us.
RLA (mediator) will not release us for self-help.
Find a way to take something away from the company.
Company wants NJI to remain non-union.
We threaten the company's ability to have a non-union flight department.
Company can choose to increase original offer to union group or not.
It's called negotiating and may help improve our situation.
Since it's something the company feels so strongly against, maybe they'll pay to make it go away.

So, the answer to your original question, "How do you benefit from 'merging' the two groups?
By threatening to take something away from the company that they value dearly - their non-union pilots.

 

[dime line]

Majik.....We must use the tools available to us.
RLA (mediator) will not release us for self-help


Because I don't know.. I thought a strike was the unions/pilots Ace card. And that would be the very last option?

Does "Self-Help" mean Strike, in fancy term

Thanks

 

[Majik]

Majik.....We must use the tools available to us.
RLA (mediator) will not release us for self-help


Because I don't know.. I thought a strike was the unions/pilots Ace card. And that would be the very last option?

Does "Self-Help" mean Strike, in fancy term

Thanks

Self help includes the right to strike.

 

[dime line]

well does NJA have the right to self help/strike when there is no other option?