Negotiations in public

[Flopgut]

Oil is down. The companies have technically merged. The economy has not cratered yet. Today's world is anything but stable.

UAL ALPA and CAL ALPA are stonewalling without any concern about a timeline. In more stable times stonewalling might be the way to go. But when the two companies are under draconian concessionary contracts and years have passed it is time to sign something short term and go for more as soon as it is signed.

Signing a section by section improvement is also an option the unions are not pursuing.

The unions are also not putting any pressure on the situation. How is the sick call count? How is the on time? What is the media reporting about the pilots issues? What is the media reporting about customer service because of labor issues? None of this is happening.

UAL ALPA needs to break out and tell CAL ALPA to make it happen or follow the leader. CAL management needs to learn what real pilots do to get a deal because after 25 years with CAL pilots management never learned.

Boot licker.

 

[redflyer65]

I'm curious, AND THIS ISN'T FLAME, but you are a SWA guy and I see a lot of you throwing stones about DAL's scope (or lack of), yet SWAPA was going to allow SWA to expand into Mexico and Canada with 737's flown by non SWA pilots. No ALPA carrier would ever do that. What's your take on that.
Personally I think it shows that every airline has it's issues, but what's with the stone throwing?

My post wasn't to bash Delta, but when United management is trying to match DL scope and say 'well, everyone else is doing it!', that's a huge problem.

Since you opened the door,

I say that Delta has HORRIBLE scope of small RJ's and unbelievable Codeshare with now 12 partners.

You want to debate those facts? Bring it...

and way don't you compare and contrast DL codeshare/scope versus SW?

PS- I'm not looking to highjack a United thread, but there is no way United pilots should sign off on anything that looks like DL scope, but that's just my opinion.

RF

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The union strategy has been losing.

The new UAL got 70 seat jets flying in CAL hubs.

The new UAL is parking B767-200.

The new UAL is still working with under a concessionary contract with no end in sight.

And the new UAL is has merged and the current status quo can go on indefinitely.

So what has the union strategy produced? nothing.

 

[catIIIc]

Oil is down. The companies have technically merged. The economy has not cratered yet. Today's world is anything but stable.

UAL ALPA and CAL ALPA are stonewalling without any concern about a timeline. In more stable times stonewalling might be the way to go. But when the two companies are under draconian concessionary contracts and years have passed it is time to sign something short term and go for more as soon as it is signed.

Signing a section by section improvement is also an option the unions are not pursuing.

The unions are also not putting any pressure on the situation. How is the sick call count? How is the on time? What is the media reporting about the pilots issues? What is the media reporting about customer service because of labor issues? None of this is happening.

UAL ALPA needs to break out and tell CAL ALPA to make it happen or follow the leader. CAL management needs to learn what real pilots do to get a deal because after 25 years with CAL pilots management never learned.

UAL ALPA cannot do anything at all because they are bound by a restraining order against everything you mentioned above.

 

[Flopgut]

The union strategy has been losing.

The new UAL got 70 seat jets flying in CAL hubs.

The new UAL is parking B767-200.

The new UAL is still working with under a concessionary contract with no end in sight.

And the new UAL is has merged and the current status quo can go on indefinitely.

So what has the union strategy produced? nothing.

Mgt did not win the 70 seat scope arbitration and they HAVE NOT accomplished the same with what they are currently doing.

The B762 is the next scope arbitration mgt will lose.

Status quo can not go on forever. Btw: where do you get this perspective? Do you live under a rock? Were you told this was going to be easy? You have a rep, call them.

What we have produced is steady, compliant, and reasonable negotiations under the RLA and in front of the mediator. The company has violated and betrayed the process. This website is a complete violation and might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

However, in your case, you are reacting to this website exactly how mgt hoped you would.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Management did win the 70 seat scope battle. 70 seat regional aircraft are flying out of IAH and EWR.

When management agrees to stop renewing 70 seat capacity contracts the union will have won. It has not happened yet. But the opposite is happening.

So how is the 767 going to be resolved after the sales occur? It will not. Additional aircraft orders years later is not a resolution.

The unions need to get a deal.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

UAL ALPA cannot do anything at all because they are bound by a restraining order against everything you mentioned above.

CAL ALPA does not have a restraining order against it. Where is the show of force?

Mechanics and Flight Attendants get contracts. Management is afraid of the mechanics and flight attendants. Management likes to play with pilots becaues pilots like to play games.

 

[General Lee]

My post wasn't to bash Delta, but when United management is trying to match DL scope and say 'well, everyone else is doing it!', that's a huge problem.

Since you opened the door,

I say that Delta has HORRIBLE scope of small RJ's and unbelievable Codeshare with now 12 partners.

You want to debate those facts? Bring it...

and way don't you compare and contrast DL codeshare/scope versus SW?

PS- I'm not looking to highjack a United thread, but there is no way United pilots should sign off on anything that looks like DL scope, but that's just my opinion.

RF

Red,

You still have a hard time understanding some of these concepts. Yes, DL has a lot of codeshare partners. Just like SWA has one (Volaris), and almost had another, until Westjet pulled out of the deal. SWA had ATA also flying 738s to Hawaii from OAK, until they went BK. Most of the DL codeshares are airlines that fly within their OWN countries. Delta cannot fly WITHIN China, or Australia. That's cabotage. But, those airlines can gather up passengers from cities that Delta does not have rights to, and can bring them to the ones that DL does. Delta doesn't go to Shenzen, but China Eastern can fly people from there to Hong Kong, and then Delta takes them to Detroit. Virgin Australia can take people from The Gold Coast in Australia to Sydney, and the Delta can take them to LA.

The difference with that and the SWA/Volaris code share is that SWA doesn't go to Mexico at all (Airtran does, but no SOC yet), and Volaris was flying to the USA (OAK and MDW) and taking passengers to and from Mexico. SWA management maybe didn't trust you to fly there, maybe they thought the VNAV and Autothrottle addition for you guys could cause an overload. You may try to counter with the Saudi thing, which you might claim is a codeshare. No, it was a ticket agreement, not a codeshare at all. Southwest probably has many ticketing agreements with other airlines.

Now let's talk about scope and RJs. There is no doubt there is a large abundance of RJs at Delta. But, that number is coming down, almost as fast as a Corndog 737 with a roof coming undone. 50 seaters are going away quick, and the limit on 70/76 seaters is almost at it's contractual peak. It won't go higher. The overall numbers are decreasing.

And most of the extra bigger RJs came the way of BK court. I hope the UAL and CAL guys can see that, and also do NOT sign off on something like that. I think they won't, and their current stance on RJs is good---they seem to be standing firm on what they want. That will be good for all of us.


So come on Red, try to debate me. You can't. When you figure out how INTL codeshares work, get back to me. When you get checked out to Mexico, thank Ty Webb.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[whatitdoing?]

I appreaciate your support General. We won't cave on scope. I'd rather take a small payraise with scope protections any day. I haven't flown with one pilot that didn't see that. Why would I and thousands of other pilots sign away scope, only to LOSE my job in the coming years. Forget that. The arrogance of this new United management is amusing. It's gonna be their undoing and will forever change their relationship with us. They had their chance to do this merger right and to get us on board. But, with FLIBS guidance, they chose poorly.

Lucktohaveajob.....you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
We did win the 70 seat scope violation. The violation was the CAL code on 70 seat flying. I believe it had to do with 70 seaters going into CAL hubs or hub to hub. I can't remember. Either way, we won that. The 762 issue will also be won. Like our union has stated, we can make it known to all potential buyers that these aircraft are in conflict and subject to court ruling and injunctions. No buyer will touch these planes. The interesting part is how the NMB will react to management's website and their obvious disregard for the mediator's wishes that negotiations will not be made public. I'm willing to bet it's gonna hurt.

 

[whatitdoing?]

CAL ALPA does not have a restraining order against it. Where is the show of force?

Mechanics and Flight Attendants get contracts. Management is afraid of the mechanics and flight attendants. Management likes to play with pilots becaues pilots like to play games.

Man, each time you open your mouth it shows your complete lack of understanding and knowledge of what's going on in our industry. It's sort of funny. I'm guessing you're 12 and flying Microsoft type a/c.

CAL ALPA and UAL ALPA and everyone else is powerless to do anything that might be considered an illegal job action. The new UAL will slap us so fast with a lawsuit if they even smell an illegal job action. Then what? We end up losing and that in turn means we lose value with a contract. It's best to let this run it's course. Hold strong and unify our two pilot groups. Eventually, we'll get something very close to what we want.

 

[redflyer65]

Red,

You still have a hard time understanding some of these concepts. Yes, DL has a lot of codeshare partners. Just like SWA has one (Volaris), and almost had another, until Westjet pulled out of the deal. SWA had ATA also flying 738s to Hawaii from OAK, until they went BK. Most of the DL codeshares are airlines that fly within their OWN countries. Delta cannot fly WITHIN China, or Australia. That's cabotage. But, those airlines can gather up passengers from cities that Delta does not have rights to, and can bring them to the ones that DL does. Delta doesn't go to Shenzen, but China Eastern can fly people from there to Hong Kong, and then Delta takes them to Detroit. Virgin Australia can take people from The Gold Coast in Australia to Sydney, and the Delta can take them to LA.

The difference with that and the SWA/Volaris code share is that SWA doesn't go to Mexico at all (Airtran does, but no SOC yet), and Volaris was flying to the USA (OAK and MDW) and taking passengers to and from Mexico. SWA management maybe didn't trust you to fly there, maybe they thought the VNAV and Autothrottle addition for you guys could cause an overload. You may try to counter with the Saudi thing, which you might claim is a codeshare. No, it was a ticket agreement, not a codeshare at all. Southwest probably has many ticketing agreements with other airlines.

Now let's talk about scope and RJs. There is no doubt there is a large abundance of RJs at Delta. But, that number is coming down, almost as fast as a Corndog 737 with a roof coming undone. 50 seaters are going away quick, and the limit on 70/76 seaters is almost at it's contractual peak. It won't go higher. The overall numbers are decreasing.

And most of the extra bigger RJs came the way of BK court. I hope the UAL and CAL guys can see that, and also do NOT sign off on something like that. I think they won't, and their current stance on RJs is good---they seem to be standing firm on what they want. That will be good for all of us.


So come on Red, try to debate me. You can't. When you figure out how INTL codeshares work, get back to me. When you get checked out to Mexico, thank Ty Webb.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Genital,

You need to step away from the crack pipe buddy.

The difference between any outsourcing and codeshare at SW compared to what Delta is doing is night and day. Opposite ends of the spectrum my friend.

You can get all excited about going from 700 RJ's to 650, but compare that to ZERO at Southwest. The definition of night and day.

We have a defined, low ASM cap on close international feed, and ZERO long haul codeshare feed.

DL? Well, at one point the domestic feed from RJ's was pushing 50 percent in the US. DALPA started down this road years ago and over time it has cost literally THOUSANDS of jobs at Delta. From pilots, rampers, gate agents, dispatcher, etc, etc. Its unbelievable.

How much more international 'codeshare' does your pilot contract allow Gen? It seems they just keep adding on new carriers left and right, and you are arguing FOR that? Whatever.

How does the Westjet codeshare work for you? Can you not go to Canada Gen? You know most of your flights to Canada are a combination of Westjet and Delta Connection, you knew that right? Hilarious!

I think the CAL/UAL guys are looking over at the Delta ramp and see what they don't want. Hold the line guys, don't cave like others have.

RF

 

[General Lee]

Genital,

You need to step away from the crack pipe buddy.

The difference between any outsourcing and codeshare at SW compared to what Delta is doing is night and day. Opposite ends of the spectrum my friend.

You can get all excited about going from 700 RJ's to 650, but compare that to ZERO at Southwest. The definition of night and day.

We have a defined, low ASM cap on close international feed, and ZERO long haul codeshare feed.

DL? Well, at one point the domestic feed from RJ's was pushing 50 percent in the US. DALPA started down this road years ago and over time it has cost literally THOUSANDS of jobs at Delta. From pilots, rampers, gate agents, dispatcher, etc, etc. Its unbelievable.

How much more international 'codeshare' does your pilot contract allow Gen? It seems they just keep adding on new carriers left and right, and you are arguing FOR that? Whatever.

How does the Westjet codeshare work for you? Can you not go to Canada Gen? You know most of your flights to Canada are a combination of Westjet and Delta Connection, you knew that right? Hilarious!

I think the CAL/UAL guys are looking over at the Delta ramp and see what they don't want. Hold the line guys, don't cave like others have.

RF

Red,

Come on man, I am pretty sure you are smart enough to figure this out. What part of "We can't fly within China or Australia, so we have to code share with someone over there to fly their own people from cities we can't fly to to a city we can, so we can pick them up from there and fly them to the US???" That is called a code share. Skyteam does that too, with AF/KL/Alitalia being the major partners there. That is a little different since we are in a joint venture there, actually sharing all revenue across the Atlantic. If there is a pull down (like this Fall), each airline has to do it equally. See, Southwest isn't a "World" airline. It hasn't left the US until the merger with Airtran. You might not understand that people actually do want to leave the contiguous 48 States. They do. Businessmen want to pay a lot of money to go somewhere else. That is what World Airlines do, take them from one part of the World to another, and alliances make it easier, since they only have to buy one ticket or do it at one place, or one website. They like that. They don't have to see your goofy SWA TV comercials in London, and even though you think they MAY someday, it is doubtful.

Have you seen the Canada flights DL does fly? To Vancouver, DL flies 757s from ATL, and 3 daily A320/19s from MSP. There are a couple more A319s to Calgary from MSP too. DL also flies to Winnepeg on DC9s, and MD88s to Montreal from ATL. Yes, there are some RJs, and Westjet doesn't even fly to any DL hub except LAX, and they go out of a different terminal (Terminal 2? Not Terminal 5 or 6). Can DL passengers connect on those few flights from LAX? Not really. I guess they could walk a few terminals. Not suggested. I don't think you really know what you are talking about with regards to the Canada service, or the agreement with Westjet, that doesn't even fly to any of the DL hubs except one. Good try. Was it really hillarious?

The UAL/CAL guys may be looking over at the DL ramp, and they see RJs, just like the UAL RJs at ORD, DEN, IAD, EWR, and IAH. They also see higher pay at the DL ramp, and better work rules. Can they be improved? You bet, and they will, thanks to the Airtran guys getting it at your airline. That will help us all, and then when DL has higher pay than SWA (bigger planes will be argued), and at least the same benefits, what will you say then? How will you compare it? The CULTURE? If you don't treat your Airtran family members like family soon, that culture will go bye bye.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[luckytohaveajob]

So you expect me to believe all the senior UAL and CAL pilots are more interested in SCOPE than pay/retirement.

I have not seen it yet. Everyone senior always through the babies out with the bath water.

When is the new UAL going to give an equity stake in the transaction? When are the work rules going to be improved? When is the pay going to be increased to inflationary pressures?

SCOPE is not going to be the deal breaker it is being published to be in the end. The greed of the senior pilots will win. It always wins and management knows it.

And in the mean time, management is softening the playing field.

CAL did lose the 70 seat hub flying to RJ's.

And CAL will lose the 767-200.

Both those factors soften the resolve of the pilots. And what is the unions answer? Stand pat. The unions won't stand pat for long. The senior will force a move.

 

[sleeves]

The union strategy has been losing.

The new UAL got 70 seat jets flying in CAL hubs.

The new UAL is parking B767-200.

The new UAL is still working with under a concessionary contract with no end in sight.

And the new UAL is has merged and the current status quo can go on indefinitely.

So what has the union strategy produced? nothing.

You can have your short term deal, go to the web site unitednegotiations.com and see it. I want a good deal. Not some bull crap short term scope give away. A good deal will take time, that is the process. The process sucks but it is the law of the land.

On another note your continued bashing of us Cal pilots is getting old. We are on the same team, unless you are a MGT. troll sent here to disrupt our unity. You sound like the guy on my high school basketball team that sat at the end of the bench and cried about the coach all game. Get on board, do something productive or STFU.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Back in my school days I won the "Best Sportsman Award" for xx year in baseball.

I would love to cheer the team on. I just want to see the team get out of dugout and play ball.

Till CAL ALPA starts showing me some fight I am going to bash away. CAL pilots have been sitting on the sidelines for 25 plus years.

 

[Ex737Driver]

.........CAL did lose the 70 seat hub flying to RJ's.....

If that's the case, and this again points out how little you know about the judges award and the fight that still exists, then why does UAL still continue to want to reduce/eliminate our scope clause? This is evident by their request to have 250-94 seat or less aircraft flying under the UCAL banner. If mgmt had won this fight, there would be no adjustment needed to our scope and mgmt would simply fly what they wanted where they wanted.

But you see, the union did win this although the fight continues. Mgmt will continue to try to push this and violate this award. They're mgmt.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

And management does not play by the rules.

Management will violate the contract. Management will pay the fines, draw it out in long lawsuits, create alter-egos, beat on the pilots, and in the end win.

And will management will win because the pilot group at CAL has no resolve. CAL pilots have never had any resolve. After 25 years of being beaten, CAL pilots have lost the will to fight.

CAL is running an on-time operation. The bare bones scheduling is working as each CAL pilots goes above and beyond working as hard as they can. At CAL planes do not get broken at outstations. And when a maintenance issue is in conflict with safety the chief pilots always convince the CAL pilot to get the job done. And CAL training is a disgrace and used as a tool to keep the pilots in line.

CAL pilots are the problem.

 

[catIIIc]

And management does not play by the rules.

Management will violate the contract. Management will pay the fines, draw it out in long lawsuits, create alter-egos, beat on the pilots, and in the end win.

And will management will win because the pilot group at CAL has no resolve. CAL pilots have never had any resolve. After 25 years of being beaten, CAL pilots have lost the will to fight.

CAL is running an on-time operation. The bare bones scheduling is working as each CAL pilots goes above and beyond working as hard as they can. At CAL planes do not get broken at outstations. And when a maintenance issue is in conflict with safety the chief pilots always convince the CAL pilot to get the job done. And CAL training is a disgrace and used as a tool to keep the pilots in line.

CAL pilots are the problem.

I believe UAL is flying an on time operation as well I don't see much coming from the UAL side either. Your anger should be at Management to your fellow pilots.

 

[bluefin]

Folks, please read other posts before commenting. To all, " UALMEC had their balls handed to them with the injunction, they will be sued by management for just following their current contract"!!! If too many pilots turn down junior manning or not pick up enough open time, which is allowed by their contract, the union will be sued!! if the parking brake is released late cause of cockpit delays, they will be sued because it will be considered a "JOB ACTION". Therefore let management step on their own D!CKS, I think they are well on their way. With the lastest move of going against the NMB's wishes, they may just turn around and release the pilots to self help and the strike can begin!

If UAL/CAL pilots cave on that kind of scope, it means parking the 737/300/500/700, airbuses, and 1/2 of the 757's and 3000 more or a total of 4500 pilots on the streets, thats 250 on top of the already 300+ rjs flying. MIN 90% hub/key city flying, i.e 9 out of 10 flights are rj's, you have got to be kidding. UAL wants to become a virtual airline and is well on its way. You can buy a ticket to Spain from F'ng DENVER on UAL and never set foot on a UNITED aircraft, this scope will just speed up the process. EXPRESS TO MCI, IAD, IAD TO MADRID AIR LINGUS. This contract will either make or break the entire airline and industry.

 

[talespin]

Sounds good to me.

Just printed mine, I'll be handing it to Rob Tuesday morning!