Negotiations in public

[list2002]

"We have kept our end of the bargain, but management has chosen not to." ... and so... "We are offended... "

Can't wait to vote NO 15 years from now.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I'm not even sure what you mean by that. Set the tone for who, the company or the CO pilots? I hope you don't mean the latter.

Oil is down. The companies have technically merged. The economy has not cratered yet. Today's world is anything but stable.

UAL ALPA and CAL ALPA are stonewalling without any concern about a timeline. In more stable times stonewalling might be the way to go. But when the two companies are under draconian concessionary contracts and years have passed it is time to sign something short term and go for more as soon as it is signed.

Signing a section by section improvement is also an option the unions are not pursuing.

The unions are also not putting any pressure on the situation. How is the sick call count? How is the on time? What is the media reporting about the pilots issues? What is the media reporting about customer service because of labor issues? None of this is happening.

UAL ALPA needs to break out and tell CAL ALPA to make it happen or follow the leader. CAL management needs to learn what real pilots do to get a deal because after 25 years with CAL pilots management never learned.

 

[brokedash]

Good luck UA/CO pilots, I hope you will succeed in getting better terms, espically on scope.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Oil is down. The companies have technically merged. The economy has not cratered yet. Today's world is anything but stable.

UAL ALPA and CAL ALPA are stonewalling without any concern about a timeline. In more stable times stonewalling might be the way to go. But when the two companies are under draconian concessionary contracts and years have passed it is time to sign something short term and go for more as soon as it is signed.

Signing a section by section improvement is also an option the unions are not pursuing.

The unions are also not putting any pressure on the situation. How is the sick call count? How is the on time? What is the media reporting about the pilots issues? What is the media reporting about customer service because of labor issues? None of this is happening.

UAL ALPA needs to break out and tell CAL ALPA to make it happen or follow the leader. CAL management needs to learn what real pilots do to get a deal because after 25 years with CAL pilots management never learned.

UAL ALPA needs to break away?? From what? To go from a concessionary contract to another 8 year extension of another concessionary contract? Please......just go away.

 

[pilotgolfer]

UAL ALPA needs to break away?? From what? To go from a concessionary contract to another 8 year extension of another concessionary contract? Please......just go away.

.............oh, never mind.

 

[Flopgut]

Oil is down. The companies have technically merged. The economy has not cratered yet. Today's world is anything but stable.

UAL ALPA and CAL ALPA are stonewalling without any concern about a timeline. In more stable times stonewalling might be the way to go. But when the two companies are under draconian concessionary contracts and years have passed it is time to sign something short term and go for more as soon as it is signed.

Signing a section by section improvement is also an option the unions are not pursuing.

The unions are also not putting any pressure on the situation. How is the sick call count? How is the on time? What is the media reporting about the pilots issues? What is the media reporting about customer service because of labor issues? None of this is happening.

UAL ALPA needs to break out and tell CAL ALPA to make it happen or follow the leader. CAL management needs to learn what real pilots do to get a deal because after 25 years with CAL pilots management never learned.

Boot licker.

 

[redflyer65]

I'm curious, AND THIS ISN'T FLAME, but you are a SWA guy and I see a lot of you throwing stones about DAL's scope (or lack of), yet SWAPA was going to allow SWA to expand into Mexico and Canada with 737's flown by non SWA pilots. No ALPA carrier would ever do that. What's your take on that.
Personally I think it shows that every airline has it's issues, but what's with the stone throwing?

My post wasn't to bash Delta, but when United management is trying to match DL scope and say 'well, everyone else is doing it!', that's a huge problem.

Since you opened the door,

I say that Delta has HORRIBLE scope of small RJ's and unbelievable Codeshare with now 12 partners.

You want to debate those facts? Bring it...

and way don't you compare and contrast DL codeshare/scope versus SW?

PS- I'm not looking to highjack a United thread, but there is no way United pilots should sign off on anything that looks like DL scope, but that's just my opinion.

RF

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The union strategy has been losing.

The new UAL got 70 seat jets flying in CAL hubs.

The new UAL is parking B767-200.

The new UAL is still working with under a concessionary contract with no end in sight.

And the new UAL is has merged and the current status quo can go on indefinitely.

So what has the union strategy produced? nothing.

 

[catIIIc]

Oil is down. The companies have technically merged. The economy has not cratered yet. Today's world is anything but stable.

UAL ALPA and CAL ALPA are stonewalling without any concern about a timeline. In more stable times stonewalling might be the way to go. But when the two companies are under draconian concessionary contracts and years have passed it is time to sign something short term and go for more as soon as it is signed.

Signing a section by section improvement is also an option the unions are not pursuing.

The unions are also not putting any pressure on the situation. How is the sick call count? How is the on time? What is the media reporting about the pilots issues? What is the media reporting about customer service because of labor issues? None of this is happening.

UAL ALPA needs to break out and tell CAL ALPA to make it happen or follow the leader. CAL management needs to learn what real pilots do to get a deal because after 25 years with CAL pilots management never learned.

UAL ALPA cannot do anything at all because they are bound by a restraining order against everything you mentioned above.

 

[Flopgut]

The union strategy has been losing.

The new UAL got 70 seat jets flying in CAL hubs.

The new UAL is parking B767-200.

The new UAL is still working with under a concessionary contract with no end in sight.

And the new UAL is has merged and the current status quo can go on indefinitely.

So what has the union strategy produced? nothing.

Mgt did not win the 70 seat scope arbitration and they HAVE NOT accomplished the same with what they are currently doing.

The B762 is the next scope arbitration mgt will lose.

Status quo can not go on forever. Btw: where do you get this perspective? Do you live under a rock? Were you told this was going to be easy? You have a rep, call them.

What we have produced is steady, compliant, and reasonable negotiations under the RLA and in front of the mediator. The company has violated and betrayed the process. This website is a complete violation and might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

However, in your case, you are reacting to this website exactly how mgt hoped you would.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Management did win the 70 seat scope battle. 70 seat regional aircraft are flying out of IAH and EWR.

When management agrees to stop renewing 70 seat capacity contracts the union will have won. It has not happened yet. But the opposite is happening.

So how is the 767 going to be resolved after the sales occur? It will not. Additional aircraft orders years later is not a resolution.

The unions need to get a deal.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

UAL ALPA cannot do anything at all because they are bound by a restraining order against everything you mentioned above.

CAL ALPA does not have a restraining order against it. Where is the show of force?

Mechanics and Flight Attendants get contracts. Management is afraid of the mechanics and flight attendants. Management likes to play with pilots becaues pilots like to play games.

 

[General Lee]

My post wasn't to bash Delta, but when United management is trying to match DL scope and say 'well, everyone else is doing it!', that's a huge problem.

Since you opened the door,

I say that Delta has HORRIBLE scope of small RJ's and unbelievable Codeshare with now 12 partners.

You want to debate those facts? Bring it...

and way don't you compare and contrast DL codeshare/scope versus SW?

PS- I'm not looking to highjack a United thread, but there is no way United pilots should sign off on anything that looks like DL scope, but that's just my opinion.

RF

Red,

You still have a hard time understanding some of these concepts. Yes, DL has a lot of codeshare partners. Just like SWA has one (Volaris), and almost had another, until Westjet pulled out of the deal. SWA had ATA also flying 738s to Hawaii from OAK, until they went BK. Most of the DL codeshares are airlines that fly within their OWN countries. Delta cannot fly WITHIN China, or Australia. That's cabotage. But, those airlines can gather up passengers from cities that Delta does not have rights to, and can bring them to the ones that DL does. Delta doesn't go to Shenzen, but China Eastern can fly people from there to Hong Kong, and then Delta takes them to Detroit. Virgin Australia can take people from The Gold Coast in Australia to Sydney, and the Delta can take them to LA.

The difference with that and the SWA/Volaris code share is that SWA doesn't go to Mexico at all (Airtran does, but no SOC yet), and Volaris was flying to the USA (OAK and MDW) and taking passengers to and from Mexico. SWA management maybe didn't trust you to fly there, maybe they thought the VNAV and Autothrottle addition for you guys could cause an overload. You may try to counter with the Saudi thing, which you might claim is a codeshare. No, it was a ticket agreement, not a codeshare at all. Southwest probably has many ticketing agreements with other airlines.

Now let's talk about scope and RJs. There is no doubt there is a large abundance of RJs at Delta. But, that number is coming down, almost as fast as a Corndog 737 with a roof coming undone. 50 seaters are going away quick, and the limit on 70/76 seaters is almost at it's contractual peak. It won't go higher. The overall numbers are decreasing.

And most of the extra bigger RJs came the way of BK court. I hope the UAL and CAL guys can see that, and also do NOT sign off on something like that. I think they won't, and their current stance on RJs is good---they seem to be standing firm on what they want. That will be good for all of us.


So come on Red, try to debate me. You can't. When you figure out how INTL codeshares work, get back to me. When you get checked out to Mexico, thank Ty Webb.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[whatitdoing?]

I appreaciate your support General. We won't cave on scope. I'd rather take a small payraise with scope protections any day. I haven't flown with one pilot that didn't see that. Why would I and thousands of other pilots sign away scope, only to LOSE my job in the coming years. Forget that. The arrogance of this new United management is amusing. It's gonna be their undoing and will forever change their relationship with us. They had their chance to do this merger right and to get us on board. But, with FLIBS guidance, they chose poorly.

Lucktohaveajob.....you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
We did win the 70 seat scope violation. The violation was the CAL code on 70 seat flying. I believe it had to do with 70 seaters going into CAL hubs or hub to hub. I can't remember. Either way, we won that. The 762 issue will also be won. Like our union has stated, we can make it known to all potential buyers that these aircraft are in conflict and subject to court ruling and injunctions. No buyer will touch these planes. The interesting part is how the NMB will react to management's website and their obvious disregard for the mediator's wishes that negotiations will not be made public. I'm willing to bet it's gonna hurt.

 

[whatitdoing?]

CAL ALPA does not have a restraining order against it. Where is the show of force?

Mechanics and Flight Attendants get contracts. Management is afraid of the mechanics and flight attendants. Management likes to play with pilots becaues pilots like to play games.

Man, each time you open your mouth it shows your complete lack of understanding and knowledge of what's going on in our industry. It's sort of funny. I'm guessing you're 12 and flying Microsoft type a/c.

CAL ALPA and UAL ALPA and everyone else is powerless to do anything that might be considered an illegal job action. The new UAL will slap us so fast with a lawsuit if they even smell an illegal job action. Then what? We end up losing and that in turn means we lose value with a contract. It's best to let this run it's course. Hold strong and unify our two pilot groups. Eventually, we'll get something very close to what we want.