Negative Outlook for American - Could IMPLODE!

[flygirlqt]

Spooky,

I do give you Kudo's for even knowing who the "Dirty 30" are. Most pilots have never even heard of the 30 biggest scum bags to put on a uniform. Yes they were placed ahead of most of the Pan Am pilots on the merger list, which placed them above many senior Delta pilots.

Forgive me if I don't have the facts 100% but it's late. The Dirty 30 were a group of Pan Am ALPA MEC members who got wind of the DAL merger. They were in charge of the defending the Pan Am pilots during the intergration process.

Once they got wind of what DAL wanted(only the Shuttle 727's and the A310's) they locked the seniority list and would not let anyone bid off of their current equipment. They voted to except the terms of the DAL ALPA MEC, WITHOUT telling the membership that Delta was no going to take the 747's or any of the senior pilots

They became know as the dirtly thirty because they were the ONLY pilots allowed to bid and train onto the 727 (Shuttle) and the A310. They did this OUT OF SENIORITY! Leaving behind HUNDREDS of SENIOR pilots who wanted to do the same thing. In essence they F'ed over everyone on the seniority list.

What ticks me off is that today, they collect a Delta Pilot pension. The DAL pilots and their MEC were fully aware of this and let it happen. They were too busy salivating over the screwing over the carcus to condem the 30 pilots who served it up to them on an plate.

Wasn't there also a group of these pilots who were never actually typed and flew revenue trips? I remember my Dad there was a federal investigation of some guys because of falsified training department records.

Either way, this is another fine example of self serving politics and backstabbing with ALPA.

Rez O, PCL care to contribute more dribble and diatribe to your wonderful association?

 

[Spooky 2]

Hi Spooky,

Nope, I am pretty sure that I have it right. My old man was a Pan Am A310 pilot who transfered over to DAL with the Atlantic routes.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=case&no=999359


"The starting point for the integration was the position held by the most senior Delta pilot of whatever aircraft was deemed to be most nearly equivalent to the A-310. Delta deemed its Boeing 767ER ("B-767ER") to be most equivalent to the A-310 because both were long-haul twin-engine aircraft, although the B-767ER was not cleared for over-ocean voyages. Delta's most senior B-767ER pilot occupied spot #590. Thereafter, the methodology separately integrated the Pan Am captains, first officers and flight engineers, according to a ratio based on the number of comparable positions expected to exist at Delta, in the absence of the APA, as of the end of 1992.2 Thus, the formula called for dividing the number of Delta captain positions (at B-767ER captain level and below) anticipated to exist as of the end of 1992 - that is, 3,360 - by the number of Pan Am captains eventually hired by Delta - 286. This resulted in a ratio of approximately twelve to one. Thus, one Pan Am captain was integrated after every twelve spots beneath #590 - at #603, #616, #629, #641 and so on. After all the Pan Am captains had been integrated, the Delta first officers and flight engineers were then ratioed with their acquired Pan Am counterparts, resulting in one Pan Am position being created after each ten or eleven Delta positions throughout the remainder of the seniority list.
While the modified status ratio methodology gave the acquired Pan Am pilots enhanced bidding seniority vis-a-vis new hires, it also resulted in placing many former Pan Am pilots in spots below Delta pilots with less cockpit experience. Thus, once they moved over to Delta, several Pan Am pilots were relegated to cockpit positions, aircraft, and routes less desirable than those they had flown at Pan Am. For example, some 55-year-old Pan Am pilots found themselves flying in positions junior to 35-year-old pilots who had been with Delta their entire career. However, the Pan Am pilots were integrated in seniority order - that is, within the integrated seniority list, and thus, Pan Am pilots maintained their seniority relative to other Pan Am pilots."

Pan Am pilots were fenced off the L1011's and the 767's. They were never allowed to fly them, even though Pan Am had 747's. Because DAL was not taking any 747's and by weight the A310 was a smaller aircraft then the 767. Subsequently the Pan Am pilots seniority started below the 767 captains. Once the fence came down my old mans 1965 DOH equated to a 1977 DAL DOH, at which point, he could no longer hold the Atlantic routes that he came over with.

This is where the APA devised the A300 and 777 fence for the TWA pilots, "you didn't bring any over so you don't get to fly them, who cares if you guys still have 747's and L1011's on your certificate". The APA didn't think up the TWA screwing all on their own, they were smart enough to go through ALPA merger history and borrow the screwing that worked the best for them.

This is where the APA came up with the seniority intergration ratio, taken directly from the one used by DAL with the Pan Am pilots. Why, because as you can see from the link above, the DAL pilots were able to win the case in court. So, the APA knew going in that if they modeled their intergration after the ALPA/ALPA, DAL/Pan Am, intergration metholdolgy, they had proven case history on their side and the TWA pilots wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Which as time as shown has proven to be the case.

Thanks for the history lesson as obviously I had forgotten many of these details. Nothing like being right there in the middle of everything to bear wittness.

I know Pan Am was hiring like mad in 65, maybe as many as 100 a month or more, and there could be some signifiicant disparity between an early 65 pilot and a late 65 pilot's sen. number but I seem to recall that most if not all the guys senior to me were somwhere aroud the 65 DOH. All of them also flew the MD11 as I recall, so obviously that airframe was not impacted by a fence?

 

[TWA Dude]

Give every "Native" a chance to fly out of STL and they eventually come out a couple years later "institutionalized."

Hasn't happened to Mike P. yet. :erm:

 

[aa73]

Hasn't happened to Mike P. yet. :erm:

I know he didn't start off on the right foot, but he's gotten a lot more laid back on the subject, and tends to see both sides. I believe once you meet him, you'll see he's a good guy overall.