Need some Virgin America Info...

[Fubijaakr]

If you work for VX don't be surprised in 10 years when you're making $100K a year at your dream Legacy Airline Captain job. And when you want to see the guy responsible for flushing the airline pilot career down the toilet, you can just look in the mirror.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Drama queen. This is getting a bit old.

 

[strobzz]

If you work for VX don't be surprised in 10 years when you're making $100K a year at your dream Legacy Airline Captain job. And when you want to see the guy responsible for flushing the airline pilot career down the toilet, you can just look in the mirror.

That can`t happen,according to you,VX won`t last that long.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Read for comprehension, strobzz. VX will be gone, but the damage you inflict on narrowbody pay rates will last for years. Look at the effect the initial jetBlue rates are inflicting on USAir and UAL pilots.

jetBlue has made gains, but those legacy pilots are stuck with the B6 rates the bankruptcy court imposed on them.

 

[tzskipper]

In reality (due to the rapidly changing airline financials), pattern bargaining no longer exists. Management throws out the "XXX + 1%" as a red herring, because it is easier and less expensive than negotiating a contract that the "new" economic realities of the legacy airline group would actually support.

To think that a company like VX would or even could, hamper a legacy pilot groups ability to negotiate a contract that their company can afford (in the eyes of a Mediator), is a myopic view at best and a cop-out at worst.

S

 

[Fubijaakr]

To think that a company like VX would or even could, hamper a legacy pilot groups ability to negotiate a contract that their company can afford (in the eyes of a Mediator), is a myopic view at best and a cop-out at worst.

Really? Ask a UAL narrowbody guy how he likes working for the old B6 wage rate imposed by the bankruptcy court judge.

The view that pilots who fly A320s for regional wages doesn't effect other contract negotiations isn't myopic, its just plain blind.

 

[tzskipper]

Really? Ask a UAL narrowbody guy how he likes working for the old B6 wage rate imposed by the bankruptcy court judge.

The view that pilots who fly A320s for regional wages doesn't effect other contract negotiations isn't myopic, its just plain blind.

The key word in your supposition is "bankruptcy". Do you seriously think they would have done any better had B6 not existed? The UAL negotiators/MEC were faced with determining the lesser of two "evils"; the first "evil" would be what could be negotiated given the financial position of the company, The second (worse) "evil" would be rolling the dice and taking what the Court imposed. I believe the negcom and MEC chose the first "evil", that is negotiating a "restructuring agreement" outside of court. (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/50899490/ALPA---UAL-Restructuring-Agreement-March-26-2003).

It is obvious from your rhetoric and words, that you have not been directly involved in these types of negotiations and what truly drives them. Hopefully someone who was involved directly in the UAL restructuring can chime in to educate us all. In my perspective, it seems to be a very shallow assumption on your part that B6 was responsible for the gutting of the UAL contract. You would be better to place the blame where it belongs; on the shoulders of UAL's inept, greedy and arrogant management.

Out of curiosity, why do you not spend your energy and efforts to help organize these properties that you rail against (B6 and VX)? The vitriol that you espouse doesn't do you justice if you are truly a Union man. It simply paints you as a bitter isolationist.

S

 

[Lake Alice]

That agreement is negotiated between the Airline and the union. The bankruptcy judge lends his approval to it. Trustees do the majority of negotiating between debtors and creditors and doling out monies to creditors. Bankruptcy judges sign off on motions and petitions during the process.

 

[Lake Alice]

UAL's "inept, greedy and arrogant management" shoulder much of the blame but in UAL's case their was much to share. The role of a B6 or in the future a VX is simple. They are used as a reference during the negotiations. Most domestic airlines flying similar equipment are used as examples.

 

[tzskipper]

UAL's "inept, greedy and arrogant management" shoulder much of the blame but in UAL's case their was much to share. The role of a B6 or in the future a VX is simple. They are used as a reference during the negotiations. Most domestic airlines flying similar equipment are used as examples.

True.

"A" reference point. Not "the" reference point.

S

 

[Fubijaakr]

UAL's "inept, greedy and arrogant management" shoulder much of the blame but in UAL's case their was much to share. The role of a B6 or in the future a VX is simple. They are used as a reference during the negotiations. Most domestic airlines flying similar equipment are used as examples.

Exactly. For a narrowbody operator negotiating this year, LCC and UAL rates will be a factor. And they are so low PRECISELY because of the horrid non-Union B6 rate that was imposed way back when.

Factor in the terrible VX rate currently on the books and it becomes an uphill battle. Sorry, Skip, but those are the facts.

 

[Lake Alice]

Exactly. For a narrowbody operator negotiating this year, LCC and UAL rates will be a factor. And they are so low PRECISELY because of the horrid non-Union B6 rate that was imposed way back when.

Factor in the terrible VX rate currently on the books and it becomes an uphill battle. Sorry, Skip, but those are the facts.

Now Fubi let's not get all crazylike. As Jetblue benchmarks pay rates today the VX rates move the average down 2-3%. The B6 rates used during the UAL bankruptcy could have moved the percentage about the same. One airline does not make or break the average.

 

[Fubijaakr]

That's true. However, when one (or several) airlines set the downward trend in wages/benefits, other airlines are pressured to follow. The reverse of "jacking the house" if you will.

Look at SWA. They have the highest narrowbody pay rate right now. However, the God King just warned them that there may have to be "adjustments" due to their recent losses.

And the rationale will be to remain "competitive" with carriers who pay their narrowbody Captains regional turboprop rates.

 

[Lake Alice]

Agreed.

 

[Flyer1015]

Fubi, what ALPA carrier is hiring right now? Delta, no. UniCal, no. Airtran, no. You tell me one legacy/major ALPA carrier that is hiring, and I'll apply. Until then, if VA calls, I'm taking it. Or, would you rather that I "hold the line" on this profession and continue flying for an ALPA regional airline making s***** wages?