NDB approaches

[T/SF34/A]

You may want to do a search on Google or Yahoo for United 232.
You can probably find a video to show your "Airline Brat" students when they start mouthing off to you about "unrealistic"
situations.

Single engine NDB with a gear failure, not a realistic situation, maybe, (I would probably opt for an ILS if there was one), but I would feel a sense of accomplishment after I finished the simulation. If they do not, then there's something wrong with them. It sounds like you have a couple of lazy students.

Good luck trying to bring them around.

 

[CUEBOAT]

How could one rehearse an approach? Sure you can practice it but it will never be the same thing twice. Thinking this is even possible is an unsafe practice. I agree with you 100% about a CFI teaching judgement.

Also This situation isn't totally impossible. Said airplane Duchess, no gaurente on single engine climb, no gaurentee to maintane altitude, flying into Marathon FL. One approach and its an NDB. The closest ILS is 60 miles away What are you gonna do then? You would simply shot the approach drop the gear manually land and eat some conch fritters once on the ground.

 

[CitationLover]

common sense prevails here

here's how i teach it and de's seem to like it.

the student in this situation should:

ask the de if they're vfr/ifr conditions.

if vfr, then they should say i stay vfr and land, notify atc but not declaring an emergency.

if ifr, declare an emergency and ask for a no-gyro approach. if not then an asr/par or ils. ask the de for vectors (i've never had a de not refuse at least this request).

de's i think look for JUDGEMENT on our students. if they do not ask for something they will allow the student to put themselves in a full ndb appraoch (thus having the student create a bigger emergency).

of course se ops adds another dimension to this, however it is just another emergency to deal with.

my $0.02.

 

[Rick1128]

Way too many of the "junior birdmen" out there look at the aviation enviroment here in the US and do not understand that it is way different once you leave the borders. It wasn't too long ago that Canada finally decommissioned it's last four course range approach. In the rest of the world ILSs are the exception rather than the rule. As for your students, remind them that in their first entry level job, the boss is most likely going to be too cheap to put an Approach approved GPS in the aircraft and now you are going into Latin America at night (yes there are some airports open at night down there) You lost tghe left engine and the vacumn pump on the other failed. Its an old Aztec so that means you only have one HYD pump. Guess which engine?

Yes, it can happen. It might not be that exact senario but multiple problems do crop up. What you are doing is teaching them to figure out what is most important and what to take care of first. And fly the airplane.

 

[CitationLover]

rick1128,

i would imagine it would be the companies responsibility to train their pilots for these type of ops, NOT on an instrument check ride.

 

[stillaboo]

here's how i teach it and de's seem to like it.

the student in this situation should:

ask the de if they're vfr/ifr conditions.

Ok, if a DE or any other official (121 ride) is putting you in a scenario like this, you have a serious problem. These kind of situations being discussed are for CFI's to use as teaching tools in the sim only, and are to be used to take a pilot to his/her breaking point and see how they handle it when the get there (this is something every pilot should know, and every instructor should know before sending their student on a ride. If your student freezes up when overloaded, then he isn't ready to be released into the wild and allowed to command an aircraft, let alone ready for a check-ride.)

And where do you fly where you're shooting an NDB, but when things go south, you "ask for a no-gyro approach. if not then an asr/par or . . . ask the de for vectors"? I got news for you, 99% of airports do not have these facilities, and, at those that do, you'd never be shooting an NDB to get in.

-Boo!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If you put yourself in a situation where you HAD to shoot that NDB into Marathon instead of going to Key West or Miami - ILS or PAR. - then you have REAL problems. You failed good judgement before you even left the ground. Why could you not limp over to the NAS and shoot a 50ft radar approach (if not lower) while talking to a very competent controller?. I hope you are not teaching someone to shoot an NBD to an uncontrolled 5000ft strip first?

Hey, teach what you think is appropriate, all I was saying is that this is beating an UNREALISTIC situation to death.

Teach JUDGEMENT - not stupid CFI tricks.

 

[r1830]

The NDB approach is still utilized as a primary approach in Alaska at several airports. Many of these airports now also have GPS approaches, but they are worthless if you have a VFR only GPS or don't have one at all.

Iliamna(PAIL) airport requires that you cross at or above 7000 ft stay with in 10 miles and get down to 580 ft by the missed approach point. The depature procedure utilizes the NDB as well. You have to hold in the climb till 6000 ft if your flying toward Anchorage. If we had an engine failure going into Iliamna or while climbing out we would be committed to returning to it. If we were IMC we would need to shoot the NDB(single engine) back to the airport as the MEAs are high and the nearest large airport is almost 100 nm away in mountainous terrain. Couple that with the large moisture content and cold temperatures to add in some icing just for fun.

Anchorage VOR was out of service for almost a month this summer. We had to file to CMQ on are IFR flight plans, even for the Dash-8 and Convair 580(No GPS or FMS).

When the Homer Localizer is out of service, the NDB is the only approach into the airport(PAHO) which we serve six times a day.

Some might think they won't ever have to worry about shooting an NDB in an emergency situation, I know I didn't when I started. But, it is a real possibility for me, and it could be for your students as well. In aviation it is hard to tell where a job will lead to, but it might be that NDB approach into Illiamna.

Teaching students to fly an NDB approach with simulated failures is realistic. It teaches them to multi-task and most importantly maintain situational awareness so they don't find the granite cloud in the sky. It is a simple procedure and a lack of understanding would be a serious flaw in their basic IFR skills.

 

[CitationLover]

partial panel ndb approaches

stillaboo,

you still have to shoot a partial panel nonprecision approach for your IFR checkride. it's not their fault, it's the faa whose mandating it.

 

[siucavflight]

If i were your student i would feel like you were wasting my money. If you had to do a P.P. approach an NDB would not the approach, you always have other approaches that are available to you.
But the fact that they are airline kiddies, i would have also covered up their compass, and disabled the timer.

 

[uscpilot]

siucavflight, "you always have other approaches that are available to you," are you serious?
Did you read the previous posts that discuss airports in Alaska that have only NDB approaches??!!

 

[Toy Soldier]

The actual "type" of practice approach isn't as important as realistic training. Fortunately, during training we can "overload" students so that they have to multi-task, prioritize, etc. Why not multi-task them on different types approaches?

The idea is to "overload the senses" by creating "artificial stress". It is a technique used by the army in most all of their schools.

We would also train with minimal sleep, food deprivation, stress, fatigue from long forced marches, etc. THEN, you would be required to perform an analysis of the battlefield, enemy situation, and oh yea, to THINK! There have been many a night when I thought I saw a snickers bar running across the trail. Then I had to decide whether to shoot it or eat it.....

Flying is no different in that we need to prepare our students for the "worst case scenerio". I routinely throw scenerios at my students in which they have to make snap decisions. I do it during pre-flight, on the takeoff roll, in the training area, and during landings.

You ask, what are the chances of the door popping open and at the same time their passenger yelling that they lost oil pressure just before V1? Probably not much. BUT, the training value is there in that I created a diversion and tripped up their "routine". Now they have to make a decision none-the-less.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

please tell us...

When in your flying career you EVER had to make a "snap decision"..???

Even V1 is no "decision" anymore...once your hands are off, you are going.

I dont ever want to fly with someone who has trained for these "snap decisons"...thats when people get hurt...I have NEVER had (or can even imagine) a situation where one would have to make a SNAP DECISION!!

Take a breath, think about it, get the checklist, talk to your crew, make a decision, inform ATC what you intend to do, and continue. Thats my idea of a decision...

This is not TOP GUN folks...

NAFI folks have always scared me though...maybe its those "precision landing" or "x-country planning" contests they have....

 

[mattfish42]

My instrument temporary is barely over a week old, and I'm glad my instructors didn't limit themselves to only what was "realistic". Of course they gave me multiple system failures at the worst possible time. Sim lessons were frequently programmed with complex, high performance aircraft instead of the old 172, forcing me to think twice as fast as needed in the real plane. This student's humble opinion is this: don't cheat these two guys out of a quality education simply because they're lazy. Be mean!

Couple nights ago was my first time flying solo IMC at night. I had to laugh a little when the runway started to be visible; it's so much easier when all the instruments are working!

 

[Whirlwind]

The actual "type" of practice approach isn't as important as realistic training. Fortunately, during training we can "overload" students so that they have to multi-task, prioritize, etc. Why not multi-task them on different types approaches?

The idea is to "overload the senses" by creating "artificial stress". It is a technique used by the army in most all of their schools.

Yes, but in the Army they can wash out recruits, as well as demand whatever out of them.

If my CFI ever tossed that much on me, I'd just look over at her and roll my eyes.

In other words, there is a limit to what you can toss out before I'll call uncle and break it off.

The original comment was about a partial panel NDB approach in lousy weather, hot and high, with an engine failure and an electrical failure, and the gear is stuck halfway down.

That is so many things gone wrong, that you almost have to start ignoring some problems and dealing with the things you must. Without the second engine while hot and high, you no longer likely have any climb ability. Partial panel with only an ADF, you reallly shouldn't go flying missed approaches. You're past the FAF so you're down to a minute or two before landing.

Forget the electrics and the gear, put it down on the ground and be happy that you walk away.