NDB approaches

[Toy Soldier]

If you haven't had to make a "snap decision" then you haven't experienced enough. I have seen people FREEZE when it came to making SIMPLE decisions. And, guess what? Training and practice will make those decisions easier.

Also, "snap decision" don't hurt anyone if they are made with experience and training - kind of like the Army's "immediate action drills". We are not talking about reacting blindly.

The army relation was just an analogy to explain the logic behind "testing" our students. I always train using sound principles and I keep the training as realistic as possible.

1. A snap decision might be deciding NOT to takeoff when there is a flock of geese flying over the departure end and you just notice them before V1.

2. A snap decision might be deciding NOT to land when a herd of deer run out in front of you just before landing.

3. A snap decision might have to be made if you hear a loud bang just before rotation and you have to decide whether to rotate or not.

These all happened at my local airport and the wrong decisison could have been deadly.

Also, the intent is to "work" the decision making and synaptic responses so that pilots will be able to make good judgement decisions when they DO have plenty of time - if they do.

QUESTION. How many CFI's out there have had to make "snap decisions" when a student does something drastically unexpected at a very inopportune time? Hence, we had to make a "snap decision".

Clarification: A snap decision means that a decision has to be made in a shorter than normal time frame. Without undue delay.

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If my CFI ever tossed that much on me, I'd just look over at her and roll my eyes.
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Oh, and if a door opening and me telling the student that he lost oil pressure is too much for a student............................

 

[midlifeflyer]

QUESTION. How many CFI's out there have had to make "snap decisions" when a student does something drastically unexpected at a very inopportune time? Hence, we had to make a "snap decision".

Oh, you saw that takeoff?

 

[labbats]

I've had to make some snap decisions myself, but training took over instinct and all went well. That's what we train for. We don't train for the partial panel NDB with and electrical failure and gear stuck. That's just a waste of the student's money and patience.

In that situation, I'd be on an instrument flight plan apparently, and I'd advise whomever that it was an emergency. They'd foam the field and give me an ASR or PAR. End of story. If I was in Alaska or wherever, I'd also have a battery powered GPS, like everyone else who lives there, and the point would be moot once again.

In all honesty, we've all had several instructors in our careers, and I can't see too many fond memories or lessons learned from someone who would throw out a situation like this. Someone posted above that they would create a similar situation as a kind of coupe-de-grace, and I think that is fine. Push that A+ student, but only if he/she has everything else aced.

 

[siucavflight]

USC pilot, GPS Approaches? Or havent you heard of those yet. And i bet if you were flying in alaska you have a GPS. What is going to happen when the FAA closes all of the NDB's in the next five years.

 

[Whirlwind]

1. A snap decision might be deciding NOT to takeoff when there is a flock of geese flying over the departure end and you just notice them before V1.

2. A snap decision might be deciding NOT to land when a herd of deer run out in front of you just before landing.

3. A snap decision might have to be made if you hear a loud bang just before rotation and you have to decide whether to rotate or not.

Those are not snap decisions, those decisions were made well before they happened.

You have mentally thought about them before they happened, or you experienced them in training.

Fly Safe!

 

[Toy Soldier]

original post by Whirlwind
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B]Those are not snap decisions, those decisions were made well before they happened.[/B]
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BINGO! That's my point - they should become conditioned responses /options because we have trained for the events.

Remember however, the ACTUAL "incidents" that I mentioned aren't exact, they represent the idea that unexpected things can happen.

And guess what , I "informed" a student one day that there were deer in the middle of the runway and he continued the takeoff anyway! I asked him why he didn't abort the takeoff and he said that "he didn't know because he wasn't EXPECTING it to happen and it caught him off guard". Just for the record, we spoke about that VERY thing during the pre-flight.

The intent of my post was to say that we need to simulate emergencies as much as possible so that our students can make logical decisions when they need it.

Also, in my limited 700 hours of dual given I have learned that folks don't always react the way they should in situations - even after thorough training. I have had to take the controls to "correct a bad situation" a few times - just to have the student tell me "I don't know" when I asked them what they were thinking at the moment.

 

[uscpilot]

siucavflight,
Listen smarta$$, not everyone has a GPS. And to assume that everyone does and therefore not train for NDB approaches is idiotic. You people think that GPS is the be all end all for navigation. Ill bet that if your Garmen 430 went down you would declare an emergency.

Yes if I were flying in Alaska I would have a hand held GPS. Does the FAA require me to have one??

Its not 2008, and the NDB's have not yet been deactivated. In spite of this you think that people should not be trained how to shoot an NDB approach.

 

[siucavflight]

I never said that NDB approaches should not be taught. I said that there is no need to have a student training instuuments in a twin doing an engine out, partial panel, no gear NDB approach. I said that if you had that situation you would opt to do a different kind of approach, wether it is a PAR or going to a different airport that has more than a NDB approach.
And for your information USCpilot i would not declare an emergency if my GPS went down because i do not fly with one. But if i were in Alaska i would use one. All that i am saying is that we should be teaching things that our students will see in real life situations. If i threw that situation at one of my students i would expect them to ask for a different type of approach. And that would be a succesful lesson.

 

[Rick1128]

I believe that a few of you are missing the point. It is very difficult to teach 'real' senarios. Because in the real work something totally unexpected comes out of the woodwork to bite you. What is really being taught in these load 'em senarios is how to what the computer people call 'multi-tasking' In other words figure out what is most importand and do things in an order that works.

In todays aviation enviroment IMO the students are being spoon fed and have no concept of what the real 'down and dirty' world is like. The systems manuals are becoming so simplified that these pilots are finding it difficult to understand the systems enough to write a clear and concise descrepency report with enough information for maintenance. And they can't shoot a fixed card ADF. What happens if your RMI shoots craps?

Some of your talk about how the operators are suppose to train you. Well they expect that you to be able do the basics. They will teach you the airplane, but the basics are up to you. Besides if you can do an ADF approach engine out, all the other approaches are a snap.

 

[Toy Soldier]

What if the minimums at the local airport were ripe for an NDB but the weather at the alternate was lower than required for an ILS? Not to mention that the localizer was out.

Again, the logic is not the actuality of any individual approach, training technique, etc.. It is simply providing realistic training (stress management, decision making, etc.) to help students learn to think on their own - while overloaded, and to make SOUND decisions.

By the way, I have hard cards go bad in my Garmin 530, 430, and Trimble - in two different planes. I have had systems in several different airplanes "take a momentary dump" - just like computers do. Then I had to shutdown the electrics and "reboot"!

 

[uscpilot]

siucavflight,
Why do instructors feel the need not to try to load a student up, and test their limits? Should you teach that emergencies happen only one at a time? And as far as the gear goes, who really cares if it goes down or not? For that very reason it is a good idea to include it. If the student gets distracted by the gear the instructor can inform him or her that it is not necessary in this situation, and can only distract from flying single engine at or above the aircrafts published single engine service celing.

If I were the instructor I would applaud the student for trying to reduce the workload by using the GPS, or requesting a PAR, good aeronautical decision making. I would then inform him that his GPS just died and the radar sight is down for maintence. Sadistic? Unrealistic? Improbable? All the above. But it will make a better pilot. Not somebody that expects emergencies to happen one at a time. I would not want somebody to be complacent and not expect the sh!t to hit the fan again after they have already delt with one emergency.

Is the origional situation "real life"? No, of course not. That does not mean that on occasion that you should not test a students limits. Granted these things work best in a simulator, but not all schools have them, so you have to do the best with what you have. It should also not be done on a daily basis, just thrown in once or twice towards the end of training.

Our company will occasionaly give sim rides during recurrency training. The purpose of these rides is to test the pilots limits. They will fail all sorts of things until you either crash or land the plane. Few land it. Its not a pass fail sort of thing. It just keeps you on your toes, and tests your limits. (I realize this was not really relivant to our discussion, I just saw somebody early in the thread challanging the notion of companies killing people in the sim.)

 

[ktulu34535]

a reading from the bible...

"Normal individuals begin to respond rapidly and exactly, within the limits of their experience and training. Many responses are automatic, which points out the need for proper training in emergency operations prior to an actual emergency. "

~~Aviation Instructors Handbook

 

[Toy Soldier]

ktulu34535


Very eloquently put!

As I say, there is nothing like knowing "the rules". After all, smarter people than us wrote them...

 

[80/20]

I like the simple-to-complex building block system and try to avoid unanticipated events training until normal and non-normal exercises can be handled individually. The first block is to teach anticipated events where you will notify the student about a task that will be introduced. The student will then practice with instructor guidance and intervention. The second block is to give the same anticipated task but without instructor intervention. The third block is to give unanticipated tasks or problems. This should only be given after the first two building blocks are mastered. A lesson's workload should be adjusted to the student's level but still include as many real-world, operational elements as possible. As students become more skilled the workload may be increase. If time permits I guess you could eventually introduce multiple unrealistic problems.

How far should we "raise the bar?
Should we go above and beyond the minimum requirement?
Should we give the test before the lesson?
I would say that we should only go above when we have covered the basics properly first. There is little training value for a student to be totally task saturated with multiple new emergencies. The student's wishes and budget should be considered. A student who is planning to take the multi in minimum time will most likely need most of the time to learn the basics properly first.

 

[siucavflight]

I teach for a flight school in central iowa. I am going to give one of my students this exact ssituation and see what the student does. I will do it in our schools seminole, and report the results to you guys tomorrow. My bet is that i am going to get an earful from my student.