NDB approaches

[stillaboo]

here's how i teach it and de's seem to like it.

the student in this situation should:

ask the de if they're vfr/ifr conditions.

Ok, if a DE or any other official (121 ride) is putting you in a scenario like this, you have a serious problem. These kind of situations being discussed are for CFI's to use as teaching tools in the sim only, and are to be used to take a pilot to his/her breaking point and see how they handle it when the get there (this is something every pilot should know, and every instructor should know before sending their student on a ride. If your student freezes up when overloaded, then he isn't ready to be released into the wild and allowed to command an aircraft, let alone ready for a check-ride.)

And where do you fly where you're shooting an NDB, but when things go south, you "ask for a no-gyro approach. if not then an asr/par or . . . ask the de for vectors"? I got news for you, 99% of airports do not have these facilities, and, at those that do, you'd never be shooting an NDB to get in.

-Boo!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If you put yourself in a situation where you HAD to shoot that NDB into Marathon instead of going to Key West or Miami - ILS or PAR. - then you have REAL problems. You failed good judgement before you even left the ground. Why could you not limp over to the NAS and shoot a 50ft radar approach (if not lower) while talking to a very competent controller?. I hope you are not teaching someone to shoot an NBD to an uncontrolled 5000ft strip first?

Hey, teach what you think is appropriate, all I was saying is that this is beating an UNREALISTIC situation to death.

Teach JUDGEMENT - not stupid CFI tricks.

 

[r1830]

The NDB approach is still utilized as a primary approach in Alaska at several airports. Many of these airports now also have GPS approaches, but they are worthless if you have a VFR only GPS or don't have one at all.

Iliamna(PAIL) airport requires that you cross at or above 7000 ft stay with in 10 miles and get down to 580 ft by the missed approach point. The depature procedure utilizes the NDB as well. You have to hold in the climb till 6000 ft if your flying toward Anchorage. If we had an engine failure going into Iliamna or while climbing out we would be committed to returning to it. If we were IMC we would need to shoot the NDB(single engine) back to the airport as the MEAs are high and the nearest large airport is almost 100 nm away in mountainous terrain. Couple that with the large moisture content and cold temperatures to add in some icing just for fun.

Anchorage VOR was out of service for almost a month this summer. We had to file to CMQ on are IFR flight plans, even for the Dash-8 and Convair 580(No GPS or FMS).

When the Homer Localizer is out of service, the NDB is the only approach into the airport(PAHO) which we serve six times a day.

Some might think they won't ever have to worry about shooting an NDB in an emergency situation, I know I didn't when I started. But, it is a real possibility for me, and it could be for your students as well. In aviation it is hard to tell where a job will lead to, but it might be that NDB approach into Illiamna.

Teaching students to fly an NDB approach with simulated failures is realistic. It teaches them to multi-task and most importantly maintain situational awareness so they don't find the granite cloud in the sky. It is a simple procedure and a lack of understanding would be a serious flaw in their basic IFR skills.

 

[CitationLover]

partial panel ndb approaches

stillaboo,

you still have to shoot a partial panel nonprecision approach for your IFR checkride. it's not their fault, it's the faa whose mandating it.

 

[siucavflight]

If i were your student i would feel like you were wasting my money. If you had to do a P.P. approach an NDB would not the approach, you always have other approaches that are available to you.
But the fact that they are airline kiddies, i would have also covered up their compass, and disabled the timer.

 

[uscpilot]

siucavflight, "you always have other approaches that are available to you," are you serious?
Did you read the previous posts that discuss airports in Alaska that have only NDB approaches??!!

 

[Toy Soldier]

The actual "type" of practice approach isn't as important as realistic training. Fortunately, during training we can "overload" students so that they have to multi-task, prioritize, etc. Why not multi-task them on different types approaches?

The idea is to "overload the senses" by creating "artificial stress". It is a technique used by the army in most all of their schools.

We would also train with minimal sleep, food deprivation, stress, fatigue from long forced marches, etc. THEN, you would be required to perform an analysis of the battlefield, enemy situation, and oh yea, to THINK! There have been many a night when I thought I saw a snickers bar running across the trail. Then I had to decide whether to shoot it or eat it.....

Flying is no different in that we need to prepare our students for the "worst case scenerio". I routinely throw scenerios at my students in which they have to make snap decisions. I do it during pre-flight, on the takeoff roll, in the training area, and during landings.

You ask, what are the chances of the door popping open and at the same time their passenger yelling that they lost oil pressure just before V1? Probably not much. BUT, the training value is there in that I created a diversion and tripped up their "routine". Now they have to make a decision none-the-less.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

please tell us...

When in your flying career you EVER had to make a "snap decision"..???

Even V1 is no "decision" anymore...once your hands are off, you are going.

I dont ever want to fly with someone who has trained for these "snap decisons"...thats when people get hurt...I have NEVER had (or can even imagine) a situation where one would have to make a SNAP DECISION!!

Take a breath, think about it, get the checklist, talk to your crew, make a decision, inform ATC what you intend to do, and continue. Thats my idea of a decision...

This is not TOP GUN folks...

NAFI folks have always scared me though...maybe its those "precision landing" or "x-country planning" contests they have....

 

[mattfish42]

My instrument temporary is barely over a week old, and I'm glad my instructors didn't limit themselves to only what was "realistic". Of course they gave me multiple system failures at the worst possible time. Sim lessons were frequently programmed with complex, high performance aircraft instead of the old 172, forcing me to think twice as fast as needed in the real plane. This student's humble opinion is this: don't cheat these two guys out of a quality education simply because they're lazy. Be mean!

Couple nights ago was my first time flying solo IMC at night. I had to laugh a little when the runway started to be visible; it's so much easier when all the instruments are working!

 

[Whirlwind]

The actual "type" of practice approach isn't as important as realistic training. Fortunately, during training we can "overload" students so that they have to multi-task, prioritize, etc. Why not multi-task them on different types approaches?

The idea is to "overload the senses" by creating "artificial stress". It is a technique used by the army in most all of their schools.

Yes, but in the Army they can wash out recruits, as well as demand whatever out of them.

If my CFI ever tossed that much on me, I'd just look over at her and roll my eyes.

In other words, there is a limit to what you can toss out before I'll call uncle and break it off.

The original comment was about a partial panel NDB approach in lousy weather, hot and high, with an engine failure and an electrical failure, and the gear is stuck halfway down.

That is so many things gone wrong, that you almost have to start ignoring some problems and dealing with the things you must. Without the second engine while hot and high, you no longer likely have any climb ability. Partial panel with only an ADF, you reallly shouldn't go flying missed approaches. You're past the FAF so you're down to a minute or two before landing.

Forget the electrics and the gear, put it down on the ground and be happy that you walk away.

 

[Toy Soldier]

If you haven't had to make a "snap decision" then you haven't experienced enough. I have seen people FREEZE when it came to making SIMPLE decisions. And, guess what? Training and practice will make those decisions easier.

Also, "snap decision" don't hurt anyone if they are made with experience and training - kind of like the Army's "immediate action drills". We are not talking about reacting blindly.

The army relation was just an analogy to explain the logic behind "testing" our students. I always train using sound principles and I keep the training as realistic as possible.

1. A snap decision might be deciding NOT to takeoff when there is a flock of geese flying over the departure end and you just notice them before V1.

2. A snap decision might be deciding NOT to land when a herd of deer run out in front of you just before landing.

3. A snap decision might have to be made if you hear a loud bang just before rotation and you have to decide whether to rotate or not.

These all happened at my local airport and the wrong decisison could have been deadly.

Also, the intent is to "work" the decision making and synaptic responses so that pilots will be able to make good judgement decisions when they DO have plenty of time - if they do.

QUESTION. How many CFI's out there have had to make "snap decisions" when a student does something drastically unexpected at a very inopportune time? Hence, we had to make a "snap decision".

Clarification: A snap decision means that a decision has to be made in a shorter than normal time frame. Without undue delay.

______________________________________
If my CFI ever tossed that much on me, I'd just look over at her and roll my eyes.
______________________________________

Oh, and if a door opening and me telling the student that he lost oil pressure is too much for a student............................

 

[midlifeflyer]

QUESTION. How many CFI's out there have had to make "snap decisions" when a student does something drastically unexpected at a very inopportune time? Hence, we had to make a "snap decision".

Oh, you saw that takeoff?

 

[labbats]

I've had to make some snap decisions myself, but training took over instinct and all went well. That's what we train for. We don't train for the partial panel NDB with and electrical failure and gear stuck. That's just a waste of the student's money and patience.

In that situation, I'd be on an instrument flight plan apparently, and I'd advise whomever that it was an emergency. They'd foam the field and give me an ASR or PAR. End of story. If I was in Alaska or wherever, I'd also have a battery powered GPS, like everyone else who lives there, and the point would be moot once again.

In all honesty, we've all had several instructors in our careers, and I can't see too many fond memories or lessons learned from someone who would throw out a situation like this. Someone posted above that they would create a similar situation as a kind of coupe-de-grace, and I think that is fine. Push that A+ student, but only if he/she has everything else aced.

 

[siucavflight]

USC pilot, GPS Approaches? Or havent you heard of those yet. And i bet if you were flying in alaska you have a GPS. What is going to happen when the FAA closes all of the NDB's in the next five years.

 

[Whirlwind]

1. A snap decision might be deciding NOT to takeoff when there is a flock of geese flying over the departure end and you just notice them before V1.

2. A snap decision might be deciding NOT to land when a herd of deer run out in front of you just before landing.

3. A snap decision might have to be made if you hear a loud bang just before rotation and you have to decide whether to rotate or not.

Those are not snap decisions, those decisions were made well before they happened.

You have mentally thought about them before they happened, or you experienced them in training.

Fly Safe!

 

[Toy Soldier]

original post by Whirlwind
-----------------------------------------------------
B]Those are not snap decisions, those decisions were made well before they happened.[/B]
-----------------------------------------------------

BINGO! That's my point - they should become conditioned responses /options because we have trained for the events.

Remember however, the ACTUAL "incidents" that I mentioned aren't exact, they represent the idea that unexpected things can happen.

And guess what , I "informed" a student one day that there were deer in the middle of the runway and he continued the takeoff anyway! I asked him why he didn't abort the takeoff and he said that "he didn't know because he wasn't EXPECTING it to happen and it caught him off guard". Just for the record, we spoke about that VERY thing during the pre-flight.

The intent of my post was to say that we need to simulate emergencies as much as possible so that our students can make logical decisions when they need it.

Also, in my limited 700 hours of dual given I have learned that folks don't always react the way they should in situations - even after thorough training. I have had to take the controls to "correct a bad situation" a few times - just to have the student tell me "I don't know" when I asked them what they were thinking at the moment.

 

[uscpilot]

siucavflight,
Listen smarta$$, not everyone has a GPS. And to assume that everyone does and therefore not train for NDB approaches is idiotic. You people think that GPS is the be all end all for navigation. Ill bet that if your Garmen 430 went down you would declare an emergency.

Yes if I were flying in Alaska I would have a hand held GPS. Does the FAA require me to have one??

Its not 2008, and the NDB's have not yet been deactivated. In spite of this you think that people should not be trained how to shoot an NDB approach.

 

[siucavflight]

I never said that NDB approaches should not be taught. I said that there is no need to have a student training instuuments in a twin doing an engine out, partial panel, no gear NDB approach. I said that if you had that situation you would opt to do a different kind of approach, wether it is a PAR or going to a different airport that has more than a NDB approach.
And for your information USCpilot i would not declare an emergency if my GPS went down because i do not fly with one. But if i were in Alaska i would use one. All that i am saying is that we should be teaching things that our students will see in real life situations. If i threw that situation at one of my students i would expect them to ask for a different type of approach. And that would be a succesful lesson.

 

[Rick1128]

I believe that a few of you are missing the point. It is very difficult to teach 'real' senarios. Because in the real work something totally unexpected comes out of the woodwork to bite you. What is really being taught in these load 'em senarios is how to what the computer people call 'multi-tasking' In other words figure out what is most importand and do things in an order that works.

In todays aviation enviroment IMO the students are being spoon fed and have no concept of what the real 'down and dirty' world is like. The systems manuals are becoming so simplified that these pilots are finding it difficult to understand the systems enough to write a clear and concise descrepency report with enough information for maintenance. And they can't shoot a fixed card ADF. What happens if your RMI shoots craps?

Some of your talk about how the operators are suppose to train you. Well they expect that you to be able do the basics. They will teach you the airplane, but the basics are up to you. Besides if you can do an ADF approach engine out, all the other approaches are a snap.

 

[Toy Soldier]

What if the minimums at the local airport were ripe for an NDB but the weather at the alternate was lower than required for an ILS? Not to mention that the localizer was out.

Again, the logic is not the actuality of any individual approach, training technique, etc.. It is simply providing realistic training (stress management, decision making, etc.) to help students learn to think on their own - while overloaded, and to make SOUND decisions.

By the way, I have hard cards go bad in my Garmin 530, 430, and Trimble - in two different planes. I have had systems in several different airplanes "take a momentary dump" - just like computers do. Then I had to shutdown the electrics and "reboot"!