NDB approaches

[CUEBOAT]

Capt. Al Haynes United 232, what happened there? Do you have a link?

Also Once again thank you for another point of view

Quinn

 

[Whirlwind]

During my flight training, the instructors put every student through this one: You're partial panel, fixed card (gotta' go fixed card!) at a high alt. field in the winter, so you got the heat on and the boots going (if you have boots). You'd turn inbound and lose the outside engine as you turned inbound and lose the alternator on the opposite engine. Most every student was so preoccupied with the dead engine they completely missed the alternator failure and the low battery. Not a big deal, until you go put the gear down at the FAF. Uh oh, gear's 1/2 way down (electric gear, ran outta' juice), and you're low and slow, single engine at high altitude, so you have to eeek out a 250 FPM climb to go missed (gear is still out unitl you crank it back up, which is quite difficult when single engine partial panel).

Going missed in that situation is a mistake in my opinion.

One thing I learned during my instrument training is that when overloaded, to concentrate on flying the plane first, keeping it under control, everything else comes second.

Now wait a minute you say, the gear isn't down! That's right, it isn't. The weather is lousy, the airplane is broken, and I am past the final approach fix for the runway on an approach in lousy weather.

Now of course if I could turn off enough to get the gear down, wonderful. That pilot heat and boots probably really soak the battery, so get those off if possible. But if the gear won't come down, then so be it, land anyway.

Better to put it down on the belly than to try a one engine go around in lousy weather at a high density altitude partial panel with only a NDB for navigation.

Fly Safe!

 

[bobbysamd]

Handling a non-standard emergency

Capt. Al Haynes United 232, what happened there? Do you have a link?

Also Once again thank you for another point of view

You're most welcome, and here's a link to how Capt. Al Haynes dealt with a non-standard emergency, if there is indeed such a thing as a "standard" emergency.

 

[cl-65link]

On a 121 type-rating checkride(initial) it is in violation of the PTS if the sim instructor fails more than one system at a time.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I Never had a sim ride where they can have more than ONE emergency at a time, unless the pilot creates it himself....which NEVER happens right??

that is why I thought that situation was a little out there...its good fun and a good experience I suppose, it might teach one to react fast...but I never liked flying with guys who reacted fast

Just rememeber as a CFI, you teach judgement just as much as anything else.

I would be thrilled if my student said "I would call ATC, declare an emergency and request vectors for the nearest Precision or Radar approach, FU*K you and your NDB" ......End of Story...

The one I would worry about is the guy rushing through 300 items to get that NDB single engine partial panel gear failure thing on the ground..why are you teaching this?

It just sounds like a CFI trying to impress someone with a crazy scenario he has rehearsed before...UNREALISTIC.

 

[T/SF34/A]

You may want to do a search on Google or Yahoo for United 232.
You can probably find a video to show your "Airline Brat" students when they start mouthing off to you about "unrealistic"
situations.

Single engine NDB with a gear failure, not a realistic situation, maybe, (I would probably opt for an ILS if there was one), but I would feel a sense of accomplishment after I finished the simulation. If they do not, then there's something wrong with them. It sounds like you have a couple of lazy students.

Good luck trying to bring them around.

 

[CUEBOAT]

How could one rehearse an approach? Sure you can practice it but it will never be the same thing twice. Thinking this is even possible is an unsafe practice. I agree with you 100% about a CFI teaching judgement.

Also This situation isn't totally impossible. Said airplane Duchess, no gaurente on single engine climb, no gaurentee to maintane altitude, flying into Marathon FL. One approach and its an NDB. The closest ILS is 60 miles away What are you gonna do then? You would simply shot the approach drop the gear manually land and eat some conch fritters once on the ground.

 

[CitationLover]

common sense prevails here

here's how i teach it and de's seem to like it.

the student in this situation should:

ask the de if they're vfr/ifr conditions.

if vfr, then they should say i stay vfr and land, notify atc but not declaring an emergency.

if ifr, declare an emergency and ask for a no-gyro approach. if not then an asr/par or ils. ask the de for vectors (i've never had a de not refuse at least this request).

de's i think look for JUDGEMENT on our students. if they do not ask for something they will allow the student to put themselves in a full ndb appraoch (thus having the student create a bigger emergency).

of course se ops adds another dimension to this, however it is just another emergency to deal with.

my $0.02.

 

[Rick1128]

Way too many of the "junior birdmen" out there look at the aviation enviroment here in the US and do not understand that it is way different once you leave the borders. It wasn't too long ago that Canada finally decommissioned it's last four course range approach. In the rest of the world ILSs are the exception rather than the rule. As for your students, remind them that in their first entry level job, the boss is most likely going to be too cheap to put an Approach approved GPS in the aircraft and now you are going into Latin America at night (yes there are some airports open at night down there) You lost tghe left engine and the vacumn pump on the other failed. Its an old Aztec so that means you only have one HYD pump. Guess which engine?

Yes, it can happen. It might not be that exact senario but multiple problems do crop up. What you are doing is teaching them to figure out what is most important and what to take care of first. And fly the airplane.

 

[CitationLover]

rick1128,

i would imagine it would be the companies responsibility to train their pilots for these type of ops, NOT on an instrument check ride.