NDB approaches

[Whirlwind]

And whether or not they like it is irrelevant. The instructor is the expert and knows what is good for the student, not vice versa.

Yes, that may be true, but keep in mind that you're teaching adults in the civilian world here. These are not kids in school or adults in the military. They do not have to be there, and they do not have to hire your services.

While it is true that the instructor is the final word on the training (it is after all his/her signature for the sign-off for the checkride), he or she must also keep in mind that in addition to being the student, the student is also the customer. Within certain limits, some leeway must be given. Few adults will put up with constant "stump the dummy" exercies.

Fly Safe!

 

[bobbysamd]

Quality instruction, again

Yes, that may be true, but keep in mind that you're teaching adults in the civilian world here. These are not kids in school or adults in the military. They do not have to be there, and they do not have to hire your services.

The operative word here is "service." These "adults" have hired the instructor to perform a service for them. These "adults" should let their instructors perform the service for which they were hired. Instructors know what students should be taught to (1) be safe and competent and (2) to pass the checkride.

Another way to view it is by looking at incident investigations involving dual flights. A student might have more experience than the instructor, but the FAA will point the finger at the instructor. The FAA regards the instructor as the individual on board who has more knowledge and background.

Yes, students are customers, but they should not be running the asylum. Part of the blame rests with spineless management. Plenty of flight instructors have unfairly lost jobs - myself included - because management has not stood behind its instructors. Instructors lose their authority at the point when management sides with the "inmates." As long as instructors are passing their students and are not padding their time, students have no basis on which to complain.

 

[Whirlwind]

Re: Quality instruction, again

The operative word here is "service." These "adults" have hired the instructor to perform a service for them. These "adults" should let their instructors perform the service for which they were hired.

Yes, then one must define what that service is. To me, it isn't a constant game of stump the dummy.

Now, the original poster qualified his post by saying that he doesn't do this often, and only then near the checkride. Ok, fair enough, once or twice is not a concern. What would bother me is a CFI who thought this was SOP, rather than a once or twice thing.

So I guess we were not all on the same page.

Yes, students are customers, but they should not be running the asylum.

Who writes the checks? That is who is ultimatly in charge. Like it or not, that is reality.

Part of the blame rests with spineless management.

It isn't really management's fault, their job is to make profits (this is a business remember), and as the old saying goes, the customer is always right (even if they are wrong).

Fly Safe!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: Re: Quality instruction, again

Who writes the checks? That is who is ultimatly in charge. Like it or not, that is reality.

The "reality" is somewhere between the extreme positions of "the customer is the boss" and "the CFI is the boss." It's a much more complex dynamic and moves around continuously from task to task. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about a doctor, a lawyer, a handyman, or a CFI.

 

[Toy Soldier]

This is a tough subject. The same "discussions" could apply if you are flying part 91 for someone that is also a pilot!

I frequently have "spats" with my boss when it comes to flying the airplane. He is an old pilot with 3500 hours. However, as you may know, sometimes the worst pilots have thousands of hours or have been doing it "that way' for 35 years!

I frequently have to walk a thin line when it comes to "telling him NO" and then doing it the right way. Yes, he is ultimitely the boss. However, I am the chief pilot, CFIMEII, etc. I am learning to find ways to "ask leading" questions, point out the obvious, etc., when it comes to getting him to understand the best way of doing things.

Like we used to say in the army, "Never violate doctrine - however, techniques are left up to the individual". As long as it doesn't violate doctrine, or sound safe measures I will always do what the boss says. However..............

As far as students are concerned:

1. Follow the FAR's
2. Use standard and accepted training techniques
3. Use a syllabus (this eliminates most uncoordinated effort)
4. A syllabus keeps training consistent also.
5. Remember that you, the CFI is ULTIMITELY responsible
6. Remember that the student is ultimitely the customer (not the boss)

The "student (boss as some call them)" can make decisions like training in the afternoon versus in the morning, which plane to rent, which CFI to use, which FBO to use, # of lessons per week, etc. However, they should not tell you which techniques they will train on, which lessons to skip, how to fly the plane, etc. Students don't have enough information or experience to make SOUND decisions - that's why they are students. Once they earn that coveted ticket - then the playing field is all theirs.

The lifesaver in all of the student/CFI problems that can come up is the CFI's ability to analyze the situation as well as be a good negotiator to get around the students that want to be bosses.

I have had "pre-first lesson" students come in and tell me vehimitely that they weren't going to "do this or do that, weren't going to follow a syllabus", etc. Well, I quickly dispatched them and took the rest of the day off. We do reserve the right to select our students. Actually, I do an interview with them to see if we can "agree to agree" on my methodology, etc. - just like they should be interviewing the CFI's.

It seems like they (students) must have gotten on a "forum" and learned from the "experts" that they don't have to do it if they don't want to because they are the BOSS.......................

 

[bobbysamd]

Who's the Boss?

Apologies to Tony Danza and Judith Light.

Students don't have enough information or experience to make SOUND decisions - that's why they are students . . . .

That's been my point. Who are students to tell you, the instructor, what to teach and how to teach it?

I have had "pre-first lesson" students come in and tell me vehimitely that they weren't going to "do this or do that, weren't going to follow a syllabus", etc. Well, I quickly dispatched them and took the rest of the day off. We do reserve the right to select our students.

Sometimes, sometimes not.

I worked in three 141 programs that were geared toward ab initio airline students. Although we were flying lightplanes, our procedures were airline and the mentality we were trying to instill was airline. Some of that involved learning callouts, using flows, memorizing checklists, using lengthy checklists, and using takeoff and approach briefs. I had students who refused to learn callouts, despite my exhortations and soft soap explaining that they would use the same procedures in their Beech 1900s. I had at least one student, whose training was being paid for by a major Middle East airline, argue vehemently that what we were teaching was not applicable in a Seminole. His whining cost me a job. The managers of my company were spineless.

The student may be the customer, but the Flight Instructor is the boss and G-d.

 

[siucavflight]

This is the last word USC and i got it.

 

[uscpilot]

 

[TXCAP4228]

I Never had a sim ride where they can have more than ONE emergency at a time, unless the pilot creates it himself....which NEVER happens right??

that is why I thought that situation was a little out there...its good fun and a good experience I suppose, it might teach one to react fast...but I never liked flying with guys who reacted fast

Just rememeber as a CFI, you teach judgement just as much as anything else.

I would be thrilled if my student said "I would call ATC, declare an emergency and request vectors for the nearest Precision or Radar approach, FU*K you and your NDB" ......End of Story...

The one I would worry about is the guy rushing through 300 items to get that NDB single engine partial panel gear failure thing on the ground..why are you teaching this?

It just sounds like a CFI trying to impress someone with a crazy scenario he has rehearsed before...UNREALISTIC.

Gulstream, say this to the Columbia crew. Their siuation was so unrealistic that even when NASA was confronted with it they said "Nah, no way, can't happen."

They didn't even have a way to deal with it.

So much for it being unrealistic.

 

[stillaboo]

Gulstream, say this to the Columbia crew. Their siuation was so unrealistic that even when NASA was confronted with it they said "Nah, no way, can't happen."

They didn't even have a way to deal with it.

So much for it being unrealistic.

Say it to the Sioux City crew too. Engine 2 out, loss of all hydraulics, what do we do, SAM?

The response: "There's no checklist for that."

Guess they should have pulled the 'this isn't realistic' card, huh?

-Boo!