NDB approaches

[Toy Soldier]

TheDude

Here is the link to the NAFI Master CFI program. The MCFI is similar to the Gold Seal, except for the MCFI you have to earn credits in four different categories, submit a portfolio to a board, and then do it all over again every two years.

It takes some amount of effort to get and maintain.

Post by Gulfstream 200
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Its someone who has spent WAAAY too much time Flight Instructing..
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Isn't one hour of instruction waaaaay too much!

 

[r1830]

Original post by siucavflight

USC pilot, GPS Approaches? Or havent you heard of those yet. And i bet if you were flying in alaska you have a GPS. What is going to happen when the FAA closes all of the NDB's in the next five years.

I fly for a 121 airline in Alaska. The NDB approaches are extremely useful and most get us 100-200 feet lower than any GPS approach to the same airport. Half of our aircraft don't have GPS in them(Convair 580, Dash 8, and DC-3). Flying into Valdez(PAVD), The Dash 8 and CV-580 use Mineral Creek NDB(MNL) to verify their position on the localizer because of the false courses that often occur in the very mountainous terrain. In fact it is required. There are no GPS approaches to Valdez

In the Twin Otter, I can recall several times when we were unable to shoot a GPS approach because RAIM was unavailable. We operate both the GX-60 and KLN89B. I have seen our GPSs flagged or RAIM unavailable more than I have seen any one navaid go out of service at an unscheduled time. At least when a navaid is out of service, it is more or less local and NOTAMS are issued. When the GPS flags, it is worthless and happens without warning. As crucial as NDBs still are to the National Airspace System I find it hard to believe they will be out of sevice in 5 years.

I am sure many pilots have handheld GPSs in Alaska, but most of them are not certified for IFR approaches. In Bethel(PABE), Alaska, most 135 operators are cleared to operate VFR 1 mile clear of clouds(essentially 1 mile and 500 foot ceiling). This is lower than the minumums on good number of the approaches out there. Most of their aircraft are only VFR equipped, even with the Capstone program in full swing. Why spend money on an IFR certified GPS when they can go VFR and have more useful load with a basic VFR panel?

I wish there were statistics on how many VFR pilots have had unfortunate endings in Alaska because the pushed the weather since they had their trusty handheld with them.

 

[uscpilot]

siucavflight,
What will this venture proove? If your student does well or not so what. One thing is for sure, it will be educational.
And whether or not they like it is irrelevant. The instructor is the expert and knows what is good for the student, not vice versa.


Also I think that due to some recent posts the idea of "real life", and realistic are relative terms. They seem to be defined by the limited experiences of flying only in certian airport and navaid saturated areas. That GPS is not always an alternative, multiple system failures are possible, and that flying a good NDB approach under horrible conditions is necessary. Afterall, this is partly the point. Is there anyone out there that would prefer an NDB approach over GPS, ILS, or PAR? Of course not. But that doesnt mean that there will, "always have other approaches that are available to you." siucavflight, I realize that this sounds patronizing but you were being really niave when you said that.

 

[siucavflight]

USC, i was simply stating that i would much rather prepare my students for real life flying instead of the "doomsday" scenerio that you seem to like to teach. Of course all of these things could happen-multiple system failures. But as far as training an instrument student i would give them the scenerio of a partial panel NDB approach. I would not worry about giving them a engine out no gear ndb partial panel approach. To me this would not be the best use of the students time and money. I was never given this scenerio in my instrument or my multi training.
The only reason why i would give my students this scenerio would be to see how well they can prioritize in the cockpit. I guess that it is just a method of teaching.

I am sorry but i misunderstood the original post. I was under the impression that this scenerio was based on a real life situation. And other than those of you who are flying in Alaska i cannot see this being a real life situation. Every where in the states that i have been flying i am never more than half an hour of an apprach that is not an NDB. And we should have a 45 minute fuel reserve on board.

 

[uscpilot]

siucavflight,
You are implying that I would give this scenario in question on a daily basis. In my previous posts I said once or twice and towards the end of instrument training. And it is also for the exact reason that you listed: "to see how well they can prioritize in the cockpit. Have we been in agreement all along? Was it just my pilot ego that got in the way? That's never happened.
I dont believe that I got this scenario in my initial multi-instrument training, however I have had system failures in the sim when I was hired by my current employer.
I would not be so quick to assume that all student pilots are going to fly in the continental US. Have you looked at a chart for Europe, or any where other than the US? Lots of NDB's.

 

[rubberducky]

I think that a good instructor will challenge his/her students with realistic as well as "unrealistic" scenarios. A good student will learn from all the flight training that his/her instructor gives them.

As for the airline side, when I went through CRJ training we had to do a Single Engine non-precision circle to a missed and again to a full stop. Would we do this in real "line" flying, no. As a matter of fact we aren't authorized to circle at all. But we learned to master the engine out scenarios...

RD

"splash an go"

 

[WindyCityPilot]

On a 121 type-rating checkride(initial) it is in violation of the PTS if the sim instructor fails more than one system at a time.

True, but there is nothing against the sim instructor failing more than one system in the sims leading up to the checkride.

Sure, the student may become overloaded. But it is good training for them to prioritize emergencies and learn to handle on thing at a time. It also helps them realize that certain systems will effect other systems, so they should prepare for that fact should something fail (like an engine).

 

[siucavflight]

I do believe that we have been in agreement.

 

[uscpilot]

siucavflight, agreed, truce. There I got the last word
Fly Safe

 

[bobbysamd]

Quality training

True, but there is nothing against the sim instructor failing more than one system in the sims leading up to the checkride.

Thank you. Wouldn't it be nice to have experienced this kind of training early as habits and thought processes are being formed instead of having it thrown at you suddenly while you're already stressed out mastering normal procedures during sim?

Sure, the student may become overloaded. But it is good training for them to prioritize emergencies and learn to handle on thing at a time. It also helps them realize that certain systems will effect other systems, so they should prepare for that fact should something fail (like an engine).

(emphasis added)

Thank you again. That's also been my point.

Students should be eager for growth and to have their envelopes pushed so they learn their limits. I have had students who whined when I pushed them, claiming lack of realism and hearing that their friends' instructors weren't pushing them as hard I was. It's all about providing good training that will serve them long after they regurgitate their procedures to the examiner.