"Navigator or Helicopter time is meaningless at 'company X'"

[rcbullock]

Got that in an email today regarding a job. Geez, thanks for your service to your country too I guess. I know the person didn't mean it that way, but it sure don't sound nice. And oh yeah, I didn't learn anything sitting 3 feet behind the pilot for 1600+ hours.

Yeah, I'm venting. 'Meaningless' was just a tad harsh. Flame and argue away....

 

[Metro752]

name that company or send a PM

 

[Pistlpetet]

There are a few airlines that have that policy ie "RW time does not count". I agree that NAV time should not count for anything in regards to pilot time, but it should at least count under the same way the FAA lets FE's get to count some time towards their ATP. Maybe it actually does (Too lazy to look it up)

To say that a RW pilot has done no sort of worthy aviating is a farce. It has been beaten like a dead horse before, and we all accept it, and stay away from those companies that are not "Helo Friendly".

So in the end NAV guy. You get absolutely NO sympathy from us RW guys. It is a discrace to even lump us into the same category as NAVs.

 

[rcbullock]

So in the end NAV guy. You get absolutely NO sympathy from us RW guys. It is a discrace to even lump us into the same category as NAVs.

*I* wasn't lumping you in, the company was. I agree that RW = flight time. How much should count towards what, let's not start that. I'd want of course a certain amount of FW for a FW job if I was hiring. How much, depends. But flight time is flight time.

No sympathy was asked for, just a vent as previously posted.

I agree, Nav time should count for something like the FE's get. I'd be happy with 10-20%. Since what I've got it worth nothing as far as jobs are concerned. It's a tie breaker at best.

I don't expect much of a break, if any, for my nav time. It hasn't helped me much if at all job-wise.

And I resent as a FW pilot being lumped in with you RW time pilots even yours is multi turbine RW. All my 1150 is FW. Now THERE's a flame. Just pickin'.

 

[rcbullock]

name that company or send a PM

I'd prefer not to, but it was a large part 135 freight carrier. I'm at 1150 and being considered still for jobs needing the magic 1200 hours, but not this one. Sticklers. Plus, the job opening I was looking for was in a VERY small town in the middle of nowhere, which I would think would be hard to fill. I live close, so it's doable.

Google detectives, start your browsers to figure out who it was!

 

[Pistlpetet]

*I* wasn't lumping you in, the company was. I agree that RW = flight time. How much should count towards what, let's not start that. I'd want of course a certain amount of FW for a FW job if I was hiring. How much, depends. But flight time is flight time.

No sympathy was asked for, just a vent as previously posted.

I agree, Nav time should count for something like the FE's get. I'd be happy with 10-20%. Since what I've got it worth nothing as far as jobs are concerned. It's a tie breaker at best.

I don't expect much of a break, if any, for my nav time. It hasn't helped me much if at all job-wise.

And I resent as a FW pilot being lumped in with you RW time pilots even yours is multi turbine RW. All my 1150 is FW. Now THERE's a flame. Just pickin'.

Dude, I will let that go way over my head, as I know you are baiting me. I was a FW pilot before I was a RW pilot, and I can tell you it was a lot harder to master then flying a 152 around a traffic pattern. Let'st just all agree that some establishments are f'd up. I done my best to overcome that whole establishment mindset. I reccomend you just bank all your past experience as character building until your next big show. A little hard work and a few good breaks can change all that. Good luck man.

 

[rcbullock]

Dude, I will let that go way over my head, as I know you are baiting me.

I was kidding, hence the smiley faces and 'just pickin'. I hear it's like plate balancing.

 

[JungleJett]

How much of my 3000 hours as a Loadmaster should I be able to count? I agree it helps in the end but in NO WAY would I even begin to pass that as "flight time." My brother is a C130 Nav with about 5000 hours in the airplane. He is also a Citation X Captain. The nav stuff helped but did not help him use his hands.

As for the whole "hey thanks for serving your country" thing. Please dont ever throw that in someones face and make the rest of us look bad.

 

[Hobit]

Jungle Jett, To a point I agree with you regarding the 'hands' aspect. But, your brother was *MILES* ahead of folks when it came to decision making and running a flight deck because of his experience and that counts for a whole lot IMHO. I have both RW (military) and FW (civi) experience and yes I had only been in the flight levels once before I was working 121 but it was simply a slight change in the time/space calculations. In the apache I traveled at 100-150 kts and used loads of CRM so other than the FW ME hand stuff (what, 100 hours to master?) why would RW time be of no use? or less than a 1500 pound 152? Also, My sim partner during initial training was a 130 USAFR Nav coming off MIL Leave and he is probably the most squared away CAPT I have ever been around. He has tremendous leadership skills and really capitalized on his past experiences. I'm not saying you are doing this -> To completely discount other experience as "Meaningless" is ignorant and shows a companies unwillingness to properly scrutinize an applicants qualifications. Employers who discount your bro's Nav time are uninformed. Plain and simple.
Thanks to you and your brother for me. When I was in a turd-hole, USAF (active&reserve&ANG) 130's brought me food and water. Those guys flew into tight/dirty places and I really respect them.

 

[rcbullock]

As for the whole "hey thanks for serving your country" thing. Please dont ever throw that in someones face and make the rest of us look bad.

Does anyone read posts completely? I said I was just venting; I didn't throw it in anyone's face.

 

[McGillicutty]

Geez, thanks for your service to your country too I guess...And oh yeah, I didn't learn anything sitting 3 feet behind the pilot for 1600+ hours.

Yeah, I'm venting. 'Meaningless' was just a tad harsh. Flame and argue away....

Well, no offense but to the insurance company (which I'm assuming requires pt 135 mins), your time -IS- meaningless. I don't think this can be pinned on the freight dog headhunters. To the insurance writers, FAA flight time is FAA flight time.. you can be the nicest guy with 20 vietnamese adopted children and 4,000 hours of Nav, Hot Air Baloon, whatever time and in the end, it'll be the freight outfit that's in deep ********************.

In other words, I think you're placing the blame on the wrong folks.

 

[viper548]

How much of my 3000 hours as a Loadmaster should I be able to count?

only the amount you were awake

 

[pilotyip]

Helo time is quality time

We have hired a number of low fixed wing time helo guys, about 25% of our pilots are helo background, and never have a training failure moving into the DA-20 right seat. We count all helo time toward total and 50% of ME helo towards MEL mins of 750 hours. Helo pilots have better control touch than light fixed wing fixed MEL pilots we have hired. Airlines and other companies that do not count helo time are stupid and backwards, there is no other way to describe it. These are the same airlines that count C-150 time on VFR cross-country between uncontrolled airports as the flight time that defines time to fill out their applications. Unfortunately for us, stupidity amongst the airlines is declining more and more helo pilots are finding jobs now days. Good on them.

 

[JungleJett]

only the amount you were awake

Ok...so what your saying is I can only really use about 30 minutes of that?

 

[JungleJett]

Jungle Jett, To a point I agree with you regarding the 'hands' aspect. But, your brother was *MILES* ahead of folks when it came to decision making and running a flight deck because of his experience and that counts for a whole lot IMHO. I have both RW (military) and FW (civi) experience and yes I had only been in the flight levels once before I was working 121 but it was simply a slight change in the time/space calculations. In the apache I traveled at 100-150 kts and used loads of CRM so other than the FW ME hand stuff (what, 100 hours to master?) why would RW time be of no use? or less than a 1500 pound 152? Also, My sim partner during initial training was a 130 USAFR Nav coming off MIL Leave and he is probably the most squared away CAPT I have ever been around. He has tremendous leadership skills and really capitalized on his past experiences. I'm not saying you are doing this -> To completely discount other experience as "Meaningless" is ignorant and shows a companies unwillingness to properly scrutinize an applicants qualifications. Employers who discount your bro's Nav time are uninformed. Plain and simple.
Thanks to you and your brother for me. When I was in a turd-hole, USAF (active&reserve&ANG) 130's brought me food and water. Those guys flew into tight/dirty places and I really respect them.

I too agree that his Nav time has made him a better crew member but not a better stick and rudder guy. We all know there is way more to flying than just moving the controls. I would also assert that my simple Loadmaster time has made me a better Captain and my airline time has made me a better Loadmaster. One thing many Flight Attendants will notice is that I am more aware and concerned of their presence in the back. The reason being, is because I am used to being in the back and have had that "FS 245 barrier". I emphasize to them that they see and hear things I cannot and probably know when something is wrong before I tell them.

I would also agree that an RW should be considered in the interview for a FW job. BUT, if you have 1500 hours of RW and 10 hours of FW and you are applying for a FW job, then you are underqualified. The same holds true the other way around. I have some RW time but I cannot get a job flying helo's with my few hours in a helo. Through experience, I can say RW is more challenging than most FW. (I was an Apache mechanic 20 years ago...this month!)

If I were on the other side of the interview table looking at someone's resume and there was time as a "non-pilot" crew member, that would weigh very favorably for me. It would not however, replace 1000's of hours of actual piloting time. if two applicants were equal in actual flying time but one had time in another crew position (especially military) I would choose that person with the "other" time. It gives you a certain amount of "air sense".

Your quite welcome for the grub! We love helping out those with boots on the ground. It is what we do best!

 

[pilotyip]

Junglejet, I agree with your 10 FW and 1500 RT need more fixed wing. But I was referring to the stupid airline mangers that want 5000TT and will not accept 1500 RW in IFR, multicrewed turbine aircraft as real flight time, but will look at 1500 in a piper cub flying VFR in AZ as quality for the 5000TT. BTW how do you think airline will look at V-22 time in the future, lands like a helo?

 

[GoingHot]

name that company or send a PM

Mountain Air Cargo (MAC) fits the description. I have a friend who was turned down there because he only had 1100 hours of fixed-wing. However, he was an IP with 2300 hours of MH-60 time, much of it in combat, at night, in all kinds of nasty weather, in that senic vacation spot called Afghanistan.

 

[JungleJett]

Junglejet, I agree with your 10 FW and 1500 RT need more fixed wing. But I was referring to the stupid airline mangers that want 5000TT and will not accept 1500 RW in IFR, multicrewed turbine aircraft as real flight time, but will look at 1500 in a piper cub flying VFR in AZ as quality for the 5000TT. BTW how do you think airline will look at V-22 time in the future, lands like a helo?

Agreed.

There may also be an insurance issue as well. A friend of mine was a MiG-21 Pilot (Squadron Commander, Instructor....) with over 1800 hours of fast jet time....BUT..all of it was single engine. He had only about 30 hours of multiengine time. The airline that I work for would not hire him due to insurance reasons. They had thier mins too!

 

[pilotyip]

Put MAC on the stupid airline list

 

[viper548]

Ok...so what your saying is I can only really use about 30 minutes of that?

Exactly

 

[bssthound]

You get absolutely NO sympathy from us RW guys. It is a discrace to even lump us into the same category as NAVs.

Were you trying to spell "disgrace?"

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I worded my resume' so that my nav time would reflect my experience in fast-movers and heavy aircraft operations. I was careful to differentiate between that and my pilot time and make it very clear I wasn't trying to pad my pilot hours. Also, I worded my resume' where the interviewer would ask "what's it like flying an F-4" or "what's it like flying into a hurricane?" Your nav experience is unique and if you can spend some time wording your resume' to highlight that time you'll be able to set yourself apart in an interview.

 

[JimNtexas]

" I too agree that his Nav time has made him a better crew member but not a better stick and rudder guy."

To be fair, some navs have a fair amount of stick time. But I can't come up with a formula F(nav) = pilot.

I do think it is very silly to not count helicopter time. I got to ride in the jump seat for several CH-47 lift missions when I was in Korea. That's a big complex jet plane. Yes, it doesn't go as fast as some other jet might, but then it can go sideways and backwards. And in a CH-47 if you don't have good CRM, you just die.

I also got an hour of Cobra time, that was a lot like a cross between a Bonanza and robocop, except for the hovering part.

 

[talondriver]

Maybe we need to look at it from another angle when it comes to companies not counting nav time.

We can all agree that there is no shortage of applicants when it come to airline (freight or pax) hiring. If there was a shortage, company requirements for hire would flex. If they were hurting bad enough, you all may be able to put your Falcon 6.0 flight sim time on your app.

I don't think I could sit through an interview (out of sympathy) listening to a nav try to explain why his/her nav time could help a company earn a buck.

As far as I'm concerned, my 1K hours of nav time only counted when it came to me applying for UPT. Sorry.

RW guys could make a better argument...but then again, how many apps with fixed wing time are stacked at company X?

 

[JimNtexas]

I don't think I could sit through an interview (out of sympathy) listening to a nav try to explain why his/her nav time could help a company earn a buck.

As far as I'm concerned, my 1K hours of nav time only counted when it came to me applying for UPT.

That statement makes no sense. You're saying that the Air Force was right to consider YOUR nav time when it hired you to be a pilot, but that no other nav's time should be considered for any pilot slot other than yours?

As you must know pior navs have a much higher success rate in pilot training than persons without prior flying experience. The same is no doubt true in the civilian world.

As far as "...to explain why his/her nav time could help a company earn a buck", maybe it would tell them that he's less likey to fail training than someone who didn't have the happiness of military flight training.

When you think about it, that's pretty much the ONLY way that one pilot's background makes him more likely to "help a company earn a buck" than another pilot.

 

[talondriver]

That statement makes no sense. You're saying that the Air Force was right to consider YOUR nav time when it hired you to be a pilot, but that no other nav's time should be considered for any pilot slot other than yours?

Well...not to sound harsh. But, one point is that nav time doesn't mean much when it comes to applying for a "PILOT POSITION" (apparently, lots o' companies take this position). It might have meant a little when it came to applying for a "I WANT TO BE A PILOT" position. Other things were thrown in the mix and I'm sure my "nav time" was not that much of a factor when it came to the UPT selection board (my other point).

I think showing nav time may actually be a potential hurdle in getting hired. One question that your nav time may bring up during an interview is "why didn't you got to UPT OR why didn't you make it through UPT?"

Hey!! I know navs that are airline pilots solely on their tenacity to get a butt load of pilot hours flying civilian. That's an accomplishment that can't be argued during an interview. But arguing about nav time......?

 

[JimNtexas]

" One question I'd ask a nav during an interview is "why didn't you got to UPT OR why didn't you make it through UPT?""

And I'd ask you, why weren't you good enough to go to UPT to begin with?

ETA:

But you didn't address my point. A nav is far more likely to suceed in flight training than his clone who wasn't a nav. That goes for "wants to be a pilot" and "pilots" equally.

 

[talondriver]

" One question I'd ask a nav during an interview is "why didn't you got to UPT OR why didn't you make it through UPT?""

And I'd ask you, why weren't you good enough to go to UPT to begin with?

Eyes

Dude..if you fly for a company now...GOOD ON YA! I'm just being the devil's advocate on this one.

 

[talondriver]

"But you didn't address my point. A nav is far more likely to suceed in flight training than his clone who wasn't a nav. That goes for "wants to be a pilot" and "pilots" equally.

Urban legend. I spent a lot of time as an IP and navs have to show "hands" just like the rest of the kids. Unfortunately, I've seen my share of navs wash out.

 

[JimNtexas]

Urban legend. I spent a lot of time as an IP and navs have to show "hands" just like the rest of the kids. Unfortunately, I've seen my share of navs wash out.

I base that on a study comissioned by the Air Force in the early 90s to determine what factors were predictive of success in UPT. It was commissioned because there were a number of high profile AFA cadets who washed out. I don't think this was released to the public, but it was passed around at ACC/DOT where I worked at the time.

What the numbers showed was that prior flying experience as a pilot or nav was the only reliable predictor of UPT success.

Interestingly there was almost no correlation between success as a cadet as measured by Cadet rank and success in pilot training.

That's not to say that a person with qualification X will never wash out by any means.

 

[Pistlpetet]

Were you trying to spell "disgrace?"

Sorry, couldn't resist.
quote]

Oh you got me Teach. However, not bad considering I was drunk, at 3am, in Bangkok.