Nav/DP Question

[701EV]

Vectors4fun,

By looking at the CWK2 DP it should not be a problem, as long as they put in the TVN transition. I did it last month a couple of times and we never seemed to have a problem with it. Hook and Jayjo should be in the FMS. It appears to me that it could be operator error.

I'm not sure why that heading is taking them direct to CWK? Now I have been givin vectors by ATC to fly a heading to intercept a raidial and if I flew that heading I would never join the radial.

If it's the guys going to ATL or DFW(DFW not for much longer) give our ATC liaison a call. I will PM his name to you.

Hope that helps

701EV

 

[Vector4fun]

I once had a clearence out of AUS (westbound for SLC) fly HDG join a radial of of some vor to join a airway? Never could put that in the box, just went out green needles!

Yeah, that should be very infrequent now that we have our DPs. Used to have to read the PDR for 90% of the departures for like 3 years after ABIA opened. Couldn't get a DP published because ...

Let's see how these PDRs work out before we publish them.

Ooops, now we can't do anything for a year because everybody is focused on Y2K.

The Plans and Procedures office at ZHU (where this stuff is routed) is covered up

The Airspace office kicked the whole package back because there's a new format and form to use for submitting these

etc.

etc.

We actually had to go outside the reg chain of command to get some freindly pressure to bear. None of the standard routings has really changed, just got them published.

And thanks for the insight too.

 

[Vector4fun]

Vector4Fun, how long have you been at AUS? Has xpdr 0274 brought you guys tacos in a while???

scoot

Almost 5 years, and no, not on MY shifts!!!

 

[Vector4fun]

Thanks to all the rest that responded. I'll just take a swag that occasionally somebody plugs in CWK direct TNV rather than CWK2.TNV or however you guys enter it. I honestly haven't even been in an RJ cockpit, since FAMS went away. The last "demo" I got in the cockpit was on the RNAV in an L1011 about a dozen years ago.


You guys watch out that the "runway has cycled", and I'll issue an extra vector now and again if I need to, and we'll call it even.

 

[SLOTH]

V4F,

You are definitely patient with the "ones" who are not complying with the SID. My question would be if they actually were issued the transition. If they were, then finding hookk or any other fix would be a non-issue. Thanks for trying to get clarification and above else, thanks for the good job that all of you do withing the ATC system!

Sloth

 

[Vector4fun]

Another Incident Today

Sorry to dredge up this old post, but we had another incident today with a CRJ that very nearly got somebody sent to the Principal's Office for a paddling.

Again, refer to the CENTEX TWO Departure from KAUS, available here:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0505/00556CENTEX.PDF


Notice the Navasota (TNV) transition is the CWK 088 deg radial. Also note the relative location of Industry VOR. (IDU) Our BITER THREE arrival begins over IDU and tracks WNW on the IDU 281R over BITER to BASTO, which is just about 20 miles east of KAUS.

In today's incident, a CRJ departed South, and was given a vector of 050 Deg to intercept the TNV transition. Such a vector would intercept the CWK 088R in the vicinity of HOOKK, which is a good ten miles North of BASTO and the BITER arrival. The CRJ was climbing to 120, (12,000'). There was a Supervisor working the sector at the time, and it was at this very moment that I plugged in to relieve him. It was not too busy, with about 8 aircraft on freq at that moment.

While I was receiving the position relief briefing, the Supe took a handoff on an MD80 on the BITER arrival, and the center took the handoff on the departing CRJ. The Supe then switched the climbing CRJ to center freq just before completing the briefing, and before I sat down. When I sat down, the MD80 had not yet checked on freq. As I was adjusting my scope, tab lists and alt filter settings, etc. to my taste; Center called regarding the MD80, who was just then descending out of 160 for 100. Wanted to know if I wanted the MD turned to the Southwest, away from the CRJ. I glanced up from the keyboard for a moment and thought it not necessary, but told the center guy he was welcome to turn the MD 10-20 deg left if he wanted. They should miss by at least 7 miles laterally.

A few seconds later, as I'm finishing my adjustments, the MD80 checks in, and it's then that I notice the CRJ is no longer on anything like a 050 heading, but is turning eastward directly at the MD80. At this moment, the CRJ is leaving 105 climbing to 120, and the MD80 is decending out of 135 for 100. They are nose to nose about 7 miles apart. I immediately turned the MD about 40 deg left and told him to maintain 130. At exactly the same time, I can hear the center controller on the landline saying he was leveling the CRJ. The MD80 couldn't quite stop at 130, but got level at 128, and the CRJ leveled at about 113. They passed about 2 miles apart at those altitudes. A bit more than 1000', but only by a few seconds reaction time. I'm sure it set off all the alarms at Houston Center.


I didn't bring this up in my original post some 6 moths ago, but I've seen this happen about twice a year. We don't normally torture a "confession" out of a crew on frequency, but I believe what is happening is that somehow the crew has programmed the FMS to fly the 088 "radial" off the airport rather than the CWK VOR. I say this, because if you drew a line on that bearing from the airport to the track in question, it matches exactly.

My point in bringing this matter up with you Ladies and Gentlemen tonight is NOT to point fingers or blame here, but to hopefully prevent a similar occurance. Lord knows I don't know how to program an FMS, and have been known to have my own, simple KNS-80 in the wrong mode several times. Perhaps somebody here can "fill in the blanks" and explain the technicalities of how it might happen, and it serves as a reminder to double check your FO or Capt next month. If we had lost separation today, we'd have had to send a package to FSDO tomorrow, fingering that CRJ crew. We would have not had a choice in the matter either.

 

[TonyC]

... I believe what is happening is that somehow the crew has programmed the FMS to fly the 088 "radial" off the airport rather than the CWK VOR.

I would say it is far more likely they programmed nothing, and tried to wing it from the paper copy.

I think it would have been worth a phone call to hear what they were doing.

Did either of them mention a TCAS alert?


I think I might have said it before, but it bears repeating. With an FMS, there's no excuse for messing up that departure procedure.







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[SSDD]

Vector,

I know you don't want to point fingers, but this sounds like operator error. If these problems are with the same airline, it may be an operations problem, you'd be doing them a favor by bringing this up to their chief pilot. Perhaps they could modify their training to cover these scenarios. If possible, I wouldn't bring up any specific flights, but I'd sure point out the different situations. If the guy/gal is not an a$$hole they'd appreciate it.

Thanks for keeping an eye on us.

 

[Vector4fun]

I really don't think the problem is a single company. The only "theme" to the problem is that these things just seem to happen with CRJs more than any other type; though I can recall at least 1 B737 and 1 ERJ doing something similar. We have around 6 or 7 different Operators of CRJs. The other thing I've noticed is we don't seem to see it with the "steam gage" cockpits.


Seems to me we actually had MORE problems with folks turning out a "radial" from the airport, rather than the VOR, before we had the DPs published. The routes were exactly the same, but we had to read them in full. i.e.

"Cleared via the CWK 088 radial, 52 DME fix, direct TNV, direct LFK..."


So the DPs have helped, but not cured the problem. It's not a case of the aircraft turning direct the first VOR either. In yesterdays incident, the CRJ would have been heading about 075 for TNV, but he was tracking at least 15 deg right of that. So is it somewhat common with some crews to "eyeball" the DP with just the paper in hand?

Understand, I've never been in an RJ cockpit, and my last FAM was back in early 1999. (hint-hint)

 

[TonyC]

So is it somewhat common with some crews to "eyeball" the DP with just the paper in hand?

It's certainly not proper, and I would hope it's not common. However, if a crew failed to load the Departure Procedure into some FMS's prior to takeoff, they would have no other alternative but to rely on the paper copy and the old VOR navigation techniques.

For instance, if the crew didn't intend to fly the Departure Procedure, and thus intentionally did not load it, but then subsequently received a clearance to some point on the Departure Procedure, that could put them behind the proverbial power curve. It would mean a lot more work on their shoulders, and a higher probability of error.


Just a guess...


Call the crew next time and ask 'em. If they can't fly a simple DP like that, they can stand to sweat a friendly phone call.



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