N452fx

[GlorifiedCabbie]

They became poster boys for IRL. At one time, they were decent guys. "Don't call me Tony" and Sgt. Schultz went off course somewhere along the way. What would cause these pilots to abandon their professional standards?

 

[Jetsetter67]

They became poster boys for IRL. At one time, they were decent guys. "Don't call me Tony" and Sgt. Schultz went off course somewhere along the way. What would cause these pilots to abandon their professional standards?

I only know Anthony by name but I am pretty good friends with Schultz. Known him since Travel Air. I have always known him to be honest and forthright. He was always fair when he gave me a check ride. I am not sure what profession standard you are using but Schultz had always been professional when I flew with him. So now that Katai is over there, does that mean he has abandon his professional standards as well? What I think is that you really don’t even know him and you are only going by what others say. He kinda makes me question my loyalty to the union if it has goat humping supporters like you. You and others like you give the union a bad name by jumping to conclusions about what happened. Since you are an aviation retard let me clue you in. The G450 has data downloads that will tell everyone if they where in parameters and following SOP’s. Why don’t we wait until this info comes out before we lynch them. It would make us look better in the end also.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Jetsetter67 I agree with you: we should only judge the professional standards of the pilots in question based on facts and even then we should be generous with our interpretation.

That said, all information given out so far and information that can be deduced from the available data lead to the overwhelming speculation they were barely stabilized, if at all, and operating outside of SOPs due to pressure to land at that specific airport and at that specific time. I have heard variations of where, from whom and why the pressure was applied but that's another discussion all together.

When I read GCs statement I did not interpret it the same way you did. What it brought to the forefront of my mind was the question of what is going on in the IRL (amd DRL) program that is making its pilots abandon their professional standards? That statement on its face implies the pilots had, and have previously displayed, a high level of excellence. The interpretation of their personal schmuckiness for accepting the position is yet another different discussion (perhaps implied in the language GC used) but not relevant to the offense you took on their behalf.

It is high time, as professionals, we realize we are working for an ever increasingly unsafe company with ever increasingly unsafe sub programs. Dedicated crew is a huge safety issue that cannot be continually ignored in deference to a marketing scheme.

If these pilots are in fact found to have acted unprofessionally (and that will take time to determine) it's important to realize we can't blame these pilots alone. We need to blame the culture we have created with Red Label that is inherently responsible.

Your union - the one you want to so quickly abandon in defense of your offense - has been the only entity beating the drum that might actually be the only defense your friend will have to fall back on.

Isn't life ironic?

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Jet , you start out agreeing with me, so what would cause these pilots to take the risks that they did? They calculated their landing for the opposite direction. He was known for maintaining a high professional standard, so what happened this time. This should be a learning experience for all of us. Are you advocating for others to abandon professional standards?

 

[Jetsetter67]

Jet , you start out agreeing with me, so what would cause these pilots to take the risks that they did? They calculated their landing for the opposite direction. He was known for maintaining a high professional standard, so what happened this time. This should be a learning experience for all of us. Are you advocating for others to abandon professional standards?

As I stated before, until the FACTS have been given speculation should cease. Because that is all that it is. Speculation. A wise man holds his tongue, a fool will gossip

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

FACT; They calculated their landing data based on landing on 22. This is by their own account and backed up by their ipreflight book. So NO, I am not speculating. So back to my original question of why would two experienced pilots with good records not go around?

 

[Jetsetter67]

FACT; They calculated their landing data based on landing on 22. This is by their own account and backed up by their ipreflight book. So NO, I am not speculating. So back to my original question of why would two experienced pilots with good records not go around?

I am curious as how you are so privileged as to have information that others do not. Did you get your info directly from them or the safety department?

 

[doh]

Jet, the pilots themselves disclosed that information. And per Flexjet SOPs: when calculating the tailwind factor, you must use the worst case wind. The METAR they would have used for their 15 minute prior (also per SOPs) check reported gusts to 18 knots. So, without speculation, we know for absolute fact, they were outside of the SOPs. That Toni is back on the line shows there is a blatant double standard of treatment at Flexjet today, both in professional standards and HR.

 

[shanes123]

Absolutely the truth. Anyone else would have been fired. But they are defending the whole incident taken zero responsibility. It wasn’t their fault it was the wind The wind made us do it !!!!

 

[1folinepilot]

No surprise here at all. The guy with the funny mustache who sucked engine plugs then continued to fly for a couple of days without reporting it got upgraded to an IP

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Jet. Hello Jet. I see you logged in yesterday but still haven't answered my question yet.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Jet. Hello Jet. I see you logged in yesterday but still haven't answered my question yet.

GC no worries. The illustrious RH responded for him in a pre-dawn ramble that has some of us wondering about his mental state. At least he was coherent enough to keep FW and TP off the special treatment cc list this time. Nice to know he is keeping up with the happenings on flightinfo though.

Honest to God - a few of the actual texts I've gotten regarding the missive (unlike RH’S signature style of thanking anonymous people for replies they never sent):

"That's hard to read. It's just cringy. I think he is spriraling."

"being so close to the flame of cluelessness and idiocy by reading it fills me with shame and embarrassment"

"Does his sloppy gropey french kiss to the pilot group in count as sexual harassment?"

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Sexual harassment? They already make a 10k payout for that on his behalf at the old Flex.

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

No surprise here at all. The guy with the funny mustache who sucked engine plugs then continued to fly for a couple of days without reporting it got upgraded to an IP

F^@K UP! MOVE UP! It's the Onesky way!

 

[Imissmypilot]

F^@K UP! MOVE UP! It's the Onesky way!

Frank's latest diatribe regarding the fairness in which "deficient" pilots are dealt with is laughable. You have certain instructors admitting in open forums they are specifically targeting union supporters and/or purposefully pairing them with significantly weak and failing pilots.

Despite the fact they admit to management they took the "meant in good nature" "ribbing" too far and management is well aware and on notice of the non standard check rides being given at the schoolhouse, these pilots are left with little choice but to sign the paper and go back for retraining or else wait months for the union to get a hearing.

Instructors are admitting this. The latest example of the "transfer" pilot was management-started slander meant to discredit these union supporters and present the idea they are substandard pilots.

I'd like to see Woelke or Page pass a check ride where they were specifically targeted.

How can you say a TRB is conducted fairly when pilots have to either "admit" deficiency or end up in the spin cycle for months? Fact is management has no place on a TRB and never has. Fact is if the instructor himself admits there was no deficiency, a pilot should never have to sign a statement there was.

If anything these training examples are just another reason we need a Union here. Management will not deal fairly with union supporters.

And the fact Frank is privy to information about this transfer only management knows is disgusting. So now as long as management is using the excuse they are setting the record straight, they can spread gossip and private information?

What's next in the world of inappropriate management sharing?

 

[Imissmypilot]

While speaking of all the latest Frank diatribes I continue to be taken aback by his complete lack of knowledge or accuracy when he goes on the attack. I can find blatant misinformation in almost post he makes. It's a very similar tactic from other stooges. Why would that be? Why would you trust someone who can't even speak truthfully with your future?

The problem is very very few pilots are willing to actually do the research themselves. I was approached by several people regarding signing a decertification card. It became obvious they knew very little about the facts behind their complaints. When asked these people either clam up or say with weird brazen pride they don't read union communications. What? How can you rally behind something you don't really know?

My biggest problem with Frank'n'Beans (the decert crew including RH) right now is their complete all out assault on the Flexjet members of the negotiating committee. No wonder people don't want to be "out" in their support of the union. There are far more of us who support in the shadows than management realizes. These continued assaults against people brave enough to be on record might be an attempt keep the union from succeeding but in reality it's giving people like me (opinionated, researched, and thought-ful) more assurance than ever how badly a Union is needed. We cannot risk our careers to a band of gypsy IGMs. The Teamsters might not be perfect but they are leagues better than Frank'n'Beans.

Management fought dirty to make sure only one pilot - litetally one - was in the room for the arbitration and refused to allow any legal counsel to be available. The dirty arbritrator agreed. Then they put that pilot up against JW who has precise expertise in these areas. Management did this to their pilots. They set the stage for us to lose. And then they attack the process they fought for? This is insanity. No wonder we got ****. I can't believe Frank'n'Beans are dumb enough to bring these facts to the light of day. It virtually proves how dirty management has been. But there is a limit.

If you are paying attention to every detail, you will see the entire past 2 years is the culmination of everything tricky Ricci has in his pocket to finally gain back control. He is smart. He is cunning. He has elevated the game of union busting to unprecedented levels. However, the good news is there is a limit to how far he can play this out. And that time is coming to a end. The pilot shortage is and will continue to effectively cut short his ability to continue the unrealistic assault on his own employees.

I have at times been just as guilty as Frank'n'Beans for attacking union leadership from Flex. I haven't always been a fan. But my tune has changed after taking a step back from the personalities and looking at the facts. And the fact is attacking these people when their fellow pilots have set them up with little to no input or support is on us, Frank included, and says more bad about us then it does about them.

I have said it before and I'll say it again: this attack on the few pilots willing to stand up for us is counterproductive and damaging. Why do we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot? Pride? Politics? Fear? To what end? It makes no sense.

 

[EngineThunder]

Another aircraft overrun in Bend, Oregon today. 354FX this morning.

 

[BE40Driver]

It was not an overrun! It slid off the side on black ice.

 

[EngineThunder]

My bad. Pictures on the local news look like it’s at the end of runway not the side.

 

[jetmaster727]

It was not an overrun! It slid off the side on black ice.

So you Phenom guys; are you trying to shut us down ?

 

[FracMonkey]

So you Phenom guys; are you trying to shut us down ?

That’s about the stupidest thing I’ve ever read, EVER! Yeah, the Phenom pilots are intentionally putting incidents and accidents on their records to prove a point. Jesus, could your ego be any bigger? While there is a LOT of investigating to be done early indications are that there was black ice all over the area, not just at the airport. Could that have been a factor? Too early to say, but to suggest that a group of pilots would intentionally jeopardize their lives in the moment and their careers in the long run is the epitome of arrogant. Get over yourself, jackass!

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Nothing to see here. They will be retrained and back out on 6am airlines.

 

[FracMonkey]

Nothing to see here. They will be retrained and back out on 6am airlines.

Doubtful. RL pilots get retrained. Phenom polots get fired......

 

[J3guy]

That’s about the stupidest thing I’ve ever read, EVER! Yeah, the Phenom pilots are intentionally putting incidents and accidents on their records to prove a point. Jesus, could your ego be any bigger? While there is a LOT of investigating to be done early indications are that there was black ice all over the area, not just at the airport. Could that have been a factor? Too early to say, but to suggest that a group of pilots would intentionally jeopardize their lives in the moment and their careers in the long run is the epitome of arrogant. Get over yourself, jackass!

So if there was Black Ice everywhere, why in the world would they choose to land?? Pressure from the company? Complete lack of judgement? There should have been red flags on this everywhere, which would warrant field condition reports. Seriously, how many airplanes can options run off runways and still exist?!

 

[EngineThunder]

A Beechjet landed 19 minutes before them without incident.

 

[Propilot77]

Maybe they should Enable automatic bumpers on each side of the runway kinda of like in a bowling alley when a kid is up so they don’t get a gutter ball.

 

[jetmaster727]

That’s about the stupidest thing I’ve ever read, EVER! Yeah, the Phenom pilots are intentionally putting incidents and accidents on their records to prove a point. Jesus, could your ego be any bigger? While there is a LOT of investigating to be done early indications are that there was black ice all over the area, not just at the airport. Could that have been a factor? Too early to say, but to suggest that a group of pilots would intentionally jeopardize their lives in the moment and their careers in the long run is the epitome of arrogant. Get over yourself, jackass!

Man, talk about stupid. You are a total idiot. Have you never heard of sarcasm you dumbass!

 

[DirtyBeech]

That’s about the stupidest thing I’ve ever read, EVER! Yeah, the Phenom pilots are intentionally putting incidents and accidents on their records to prove a point. Jesus, could your ego be any bigger? While there is a LOT of investigating to be done early indications are that there was black ice all over the area, not just at the airport. Could that have been a factor? Too early to say, but to suggest that a group of pilots would intentionally jeopardize their lives in the moment and their careers in the long run is the epitome of arrogant. Get over yourself, jackass!

Early indications suggest that one side of the house keeps running planes off runways, in some cases causing hull losses, by crossing thresholds at ref + 50, landing long and fast with excessive tailwinds in a thunderstorm, landing unstable with excessive tailwinds ahead of a front, choosing a 4000 fr runway when 6500 was available and then landing fast with a tailwind or flying their plane through hail because radars are hard to read and stuff.

So I think the one side of the house can be forgiven for believing, probably correctly, that the other side done gone and fudged up again.

The FAA believed that the next Flops incident would be in May based on recent history. They were too optimistic apparently.

Let’s hope that the crew in question wasn’t culpable and were the victims of failures or conditions beyond their control. But I wouldn’t hold my breath on that.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Well we will see. I have flown with both of the pilots involved. What separates this incident from the others is the fact that This is the first time an unabashed Union supporter was involved. He was always conservative in his runway calculations, and was willing to go toe to toe when faced with a pilot pusher. The facts will come out in due time.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Early indications suggest that one side of the house keeps running planes off runways, in some cases causing hull losses, by crossing thresholds at ref + 50, landing long and fast with excessive tailwinds in a thunderstorm, landing unstable with excessive tailwinds ahead of a front, choosing a 4000 fr runway when 6500 was available and then landing fast with a tailwind or flying their plane through hail because radars are hard to read and stuff.

So I think the one side of the house can be forgiven for believing, probably correctly, that the other side done gone and fudged up again.

The FAA believed that the next Flops incident would be in May based on recent history. They were too optimistic apparently.

Let’s hope that the crew in question wasn’t culpable and were the victims of failures or conditions beyond their control. But I wouldn’t hold my breath on that.

The big question is why?

There is much speculation, several possible answers.

Look back at my 10 plus years history on Flightinfo and you'll see I have never been an advocate of our training department. I know the knee-jerk response will be our training is better but the fact is there has never been substantive proof our schoolhouse makes us better over any other outfit out there similar in size and scope. And many great organizations with "substandard" in-house training departments (yes several of our instructors have the hubris to declare our superiority to outfits like AA and DAL) have better records when factored.

So why? Is it the caliber of pilot? That's a little harsh and arrogant. Is it their FOM? Well if that's true it won't be long before FX crews are culpable. Is it the union? Naysayers will say yes but that's just foolish and ridiculous hot air, especially since most of the pilots were anti union at the time of the incidents. Is it fatigue? Pressure? Maintenance? Aircraft peculiarities? We need to personally investigate every possible cause and do a self evaluation. If we determine, personally, the issue is more company than pilot, well...

One thing is for sure. The FAA was already expressing their concerns this was a COMPANY issue. To beat their incident expectation by 4 months is not good. I would not be surprised to see them ground the fleet and make other recommendations that put other fleets under the microscope.

One thing's for sure. We cannot handle a fleet shutdown. We are spread paper thin as it is... are you starting to see Kenn maybe is not the aviation business god all RL pilots hail him to be?