N452fx

[doh]

Pilot pushing, and that is the problem that is driving this trend, is a union/nonunion issue. Because of the divisive environment management has created, there is pressure on one side of the operation. The only reason our side of the operation has not faced similar pushing is because management hope for union decertification. If they are able to achieve this, they will push everyone.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Are you guys serious? Doh is right. This has nothing to do with ****ty pilots or lackluster training. This has everything to do with company culture from the top down and if I can add, hair brained management ideas and execution.

These posts are schizophrenic. We must realize it could all be us but then in the next breath have the audacity to say it won't because Flexjetters fart nuggets of gold in comparison to our red headed step brothers?

The degradation that has occurred at Options will occur (and is occuring) at Flexjet. The only thing slowing our roll is the union and the fact KR was not in the mix of our inception.

Every incident that we have heard about (because let's face the fact this company is very good at keeping these sorts of reports out of the press) can be specifically tied to pressure, fatigue, poor management ideas or execution. Dedicated crews lead to cockpit complacency. Pressure leads to poor decision making. Inadequate staffing leads to fatigue. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I will say it again: a strong cohesive union is our only chance to continue to conduct ourselves with the level of professionalism our passengers deserve.

This decert drive is not about different representation. It is about getting back to NO REPRESENTATION. Ask these asshats about their plan to just get voted in and step down. They have no plan to negotiate anything.

Keep in mind if you send in a card you are not voting for a vote. You are in fact simply handing KR back every ability to run your career into the ground, unfettered, unopposed.

 

[el raton]

Pilot pushing, and that is the problem that is driving this trend, is a union/nonunion issue. Because of the divisive environment management has created, there is pressure on one side of the operation. The only reason our side of the operation has not faced similar pushing is because management hope for union decertification. If they are able to achieve this, they will push everyone.

It’s about safet. When I look at every segment of my trip and decide whether it’s a go or no-go, the last thing that enters my mind is the company. If the numbers work, I go. If they don’t, I don’t. I’m not saying I won’t get caught in that situation where I judged wrong, but if I do, it won’t be because of the company pushing me into a bad situation. I feel I can speak for most of the pilots on the Flexjet side when I say, “ our judgement concerning safety is not in any way influenced in any way by pressure from the company”. You can take that to the bank.

If the company interferes and does unjustly fire me for a safety related decision I make, you can be sure that my days of not being financially secure are over.

Again.. I call bs on this being a union issue. If it is, then we have one weakest pilot groups in the industry.

 

[doh]

This industry is unionized. That is why it is strong.

 

[1folinepilot]

It’s about safet. When I look at every segment of my trip and decide whether it’s a go or no-go, the last thing that enters my mind is the company. If the numbers work, I go. If they don’t, I don’t. I’m not saying I won’t get caught in that situation where I judged wrong, but if I do, it won’t be because of the company pushing me into a bad situation. I feel I can speak for most of the pilots on the Flexjet side when I say, “ our judgement concerning safety is not in any way influenced in any way by pressure from the company”. You can take that to the bank.

If the company interferes and does unjustly fire me for a safety related decision I make, you can be sure that my days of not being financially secure are over.

Again.. I call bs on this being a union issue. If it is, then we have one weakest pilot groups in the industry.

Tim, Since you brought up the non reprisal management style at Flex I have to ask why is the Flops store front treated different? Are we not all under the same management team? Why is it when a Flops guy calls in with an issue about contaminated numbers, wx, MX, fuel stops etc the usual reply from the assistant cheif or PSM is usually a condescending initial “what do you want?” which leads to the next comment “ are you cancelling the trip? Or This is a high risk owner, or We don’t want to disservice the owner “. Those comments are almost as good as the PSM that replied “ whats your problem? I went in there all the time in the X”

Its not worth the argument more. I just do my job as I was origionally hired to do and I comlete my trips IAW all SOP , FAR and AFM limitations while treating my coworkers and owners as I wish to be treated with respect. If that is not what you want then fire me.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

It’s about safet. When I look at every segment of my trip and decide whether it’s a go or no-go, the last thing that enters my mind is the company. If the numbers work, I go. If they don’t, I don’t. I’m not saying I won’t get caught in that situation where I judged wrong, but if I do, it won’t be because of the company pushing me into a bad situation. I feel I can speak for most of the pilots on the Flexjet side when I say, “ our judgement concerning safety is not in any way influenced in any way by pressure from the company”. You can take that to the bank.

If the company interferes and does unjustly fire me for a safety related decision I make, you can be sure that my days of not being financially secure are over.

Again.. I call bs on this being a union issue. If it is, then we have one weakest pilot groups in the industry.

So el, you know I'm still on the Options side, but what I don't understand is you claim the Flex pilots aren't bbeing pressured by the company. So please tell me why the Flex pilots will burn a PTO day instead of calling fatigue? The ratio is almost 10 to 1. BTW our POI also want to know the answer.

 

[doh]

Tim, Since you brought up the non reprisal management style at Flex I have to ask why is the Flops store front treated different? Are we not all under the same management team? Why is it when a Flops guy calls in with an issue about contaminated numbers, wx, MX, fuel stops etc the usual reply from the assistant cheif or PSM is usually a condescending initial “what do you want?” which leads to the next comment “ are you cancelling the trip? Or This is a high risk owner, or We don’t want to disservice the owner “. Those comments are almost as good as the PSM that replied “ whats your problem? I went in there all the time in the X”

Its not worth the argument more. I just do my job as I was origionally hired to do and I comlete my trips IAW all SOP , FAR and AFM limitations while treating my coworkers and owners as I wish to be treated with respect. If that is not what you want then fire me.

Tim? Who is Tim? The rat is JJ.

 

[el raton]

So el, you know I'm still on the Options side, but what I don't understand is you claim the Flex pilots aren't bbeing pressured by the company. So please tell me why the Flex pilots will burn a PTO day instead of calling fatigue? The ratio is almost 10 to 1. BTW our POI also want to know the answer.

I really doubt the poi cares about pilots taking pto days.

 

[doh]

I really doubt the poi cares about pilots taking pto days.

He doesn’t care about pto per se, but he does care about fatigue. Management were complaining to him about the number of fatigue calls on the Options side. They compared the number of fatigue calls on the Flex side and tried to make the case that Options pilots were making bogus fatigue calls. We showed him the number of sick calls (now referred to as pto days) Flex pilots make downline. The ratio is 10 on the Flex side for every 1 on the Options side. Since we did not have Weingarten like rights at that time, the POI realized Flex pilots were not calling in fatigued because they were afraid of management retaliation. Instead, Flex pilots were calling in sick. If you look at all the numbers, Flex pilots and Options pilots have the same amount of “lost time”. So the POI asked management to explain why there were so many sick calls (pto days) on the Flex side. So while he doesn’t care about pto per se, he does care about safety and he knows what the numbers really mean.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

That last question was for you el.

- - - Updated - - -

El, its sounds like you are guessing again.

 

[Imissmypilot]

El we DO have one of the weakest pilot groups in the industry. Some of the reasons why specfically have already been pointed out but doh hit a point that flew under the radar.

Every respectable career worthy company in this industry is unionized. That speaks volumes right there.

The weakness of our pilot group is only outmatched by our hubris, specifically at Flex. There are fools here who think it cannot happen to them. Your decert buddies are amongst the most deluded.

You and your decert buddies are risking a scenario where we are completely unrepresented. That is the likely outcome of your game and the only reason the company is backing it.

Let's play devil's advocate and say we keep a union but it's run by the idiots at the porn lounge instead of the teamster backed pilots who are already representing us. No - not teamster employees or goomba thugs but pilots you and I fly with every day are already representing us who have the financial, experiential and legal backing of one of the biggest forces in the country (and trust me that has come in helpful considering how few dues are generated in comparison to uncle's delatory tactics).

Let's use your scenario of getting fired for you doing your job. Who is going to back you up in this financially securing quest in the courtroom? Wookie? Windbags? Phildo? With what leadsership since they have all admitted their game plan is really to just let Kenn work his magic with little interference. Where are the dues going to go. Oh wait - no dues? Then how do we pay for anything, including your courtroom bill? Do you think you're so special uncle wouldnt crush you with the same tactics he's using on the union. Only they can afford the fight El. You can't. We can't without the IBT.

If you believe the porn lounge gang has a better plan then have a bridge to sell you while you're at it. It overlooks my Caribbean-esque beachfront in Colorado. You'll love it.

Where is their ISL plan? Where are their negotiating proprosals? Have they told you they've been personally invited by union leadership to observe negotiations on numerous occasions and have declined every time? How can you honestly believe they have the best interests of 600 plus pilots on their mind?

The fact is a strong unified pilot group with teeth is the only thing backing you up when it comes to your professional calls the company disagrees with. Read 1folinepilot's post again. You know this happens at Flex all the time. You know we are pushed into ridiculous plans and the facts are manipulated to make those work out.

Friend you talk a good game but I know you are miserable here. We all are. 98% of it is because it's becoming increasingly hard to be a professional. And you know this company makes that really, really hard to do.

If you have a problem with Options guys perhaps it is the head start they've gotten. But there's only one management team to blame for that.

So answer my last question. Why do you continue to back the Porn Lounge gang when we both know this is a union you otherwise support with the exception of ISL? Are a few seniority numbers really worth the degradation of your entire career and that of 600 others? Respectfully it's time for you to pull your head out of your ass and get back to the battles at hand. ISL is done. So what can we do to move forward in a direction that invalidates the impact you feel by getting a solid CBA?

 

[doh]

Check FlightAware. It appears the 452 circus is back in town. Presumably with a different pair of clowns leading the parade.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

The announcement said the pilots were placed on administrative leave. So after some time passes, the results of the investigation will be made public. They already admitted they didn't follow SOP's. How are they going to try to hide the facts this time?

 

[Imissmypilot]

The announcement said the pilots were placed on administrative leave. So after some time passes, the results of the investigation will be made public. They already admitted they didn't follow SOP's. How are they going to try to hide the facts this time?

But but but according to the company apologists at the porn lounge that's not true!

When are they going to figure out with Kenn there are always at least 3 versions of every story. The (usually silent) truth, what gets told to person A, to person B and so on...o

 

[doh]

Did the two pilots file an ASAP? I’m betting they did. Did they thank the Teamsters? I’m betting they didn’t. But the Teamsters were part of the coalition of unions who developed and convinced the FAA to implement the ASAP program. What has the union done for you? ASAP is what the union has done for you.