N452fx

[doh]

Two transfers. AM and TS. That says enough right there.

One a certain sergeant from Hogan’s Heroes fame? And the other a certain cherry found in the classic Manhattan cocktail?

 

[Imissmypilot]

One a certain sergeant from Hogan’s Heroes fame? And the other a certain cherry found in the classic Manhattan cocktail?

I wonder how they'll take it to hear their Flexjet 1/3 of the crew has been helping to scramble their reputations over the past 48 hours.

Fricking nightmare of circumstances for them. Pressured into unsafe decisions and then trashed for their compliance.

 

[jetmaster727]

Look I'm no company man but this has nothing to do with the company. This is about ****ty pilots, that's all!

 

[dime line]

Look I'm no company man but this has nothing to do with the company. This is about ****ty pilots, that's all!

Arm chair quarterback much, Ricci told you that your way better than the lowly FLOPS pilots hu.

 

[jetmaster727]

Arm chair quarterback much, Ricci told you that your way better than the lowly FLOPS pilots hu.

Doesn't matter , Flops or Flex, they made a bad choice. I call it how it is. Don't be a whiner

 

[shanes123]

It’s called Karma BTCHES!!!! How much damage did the plane sustain ????

 

[Bjtdrvr]

I heard just basically blown or trashed tires but needs an in-depth inspection.

 

[EngineThunder]

Flightaware shows it’s in PDX now.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

MX put out the word it's no big deal. One gear swing and it's ready to go.

 

[el raton]

It’s called Karma BTCHES!!!! How much damage did the plane sustain ????

Usually I don’t judge those involved in a mishap because any of us could find us in the same boat... but your’s...it baffled a nation. Yet, somehow, you think this justifies your stupefying decision you made that fateful day.

Do everyone a favor and shut up and go away.
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El raton, after a bit of sleep and some more info I've decided to amrmend my response.

I'm not trying to be a dick but I am still having a hard time understanding why you are so willing to screw the entire union you otherwise support over an ISL where you essentially lost very little in comparison to what could have been. Additionally with more and more attrition and loss of longevity from the transfers it looks like your group (admittedly the only group to lose but overall not horribly) will fare better than expected.

Regarding the incident, I heard the Flops guy called a buddy admitting they were only partially stabilized, knew it but under pressure from both company and passengers to make the schedule. They are in fear for their jobs, as well they should be, and considering reaching out to the union.

If the primary factor was pressure, the union should and will protect these guys. If it was just douchey bravado, I say let them burn. There should be a downside to spitting in the face of the only entity looking out for you. However, the union doesn't take my advice and will provide support if it's asked for either way.

If true (regarding stabilization) that information needs to be spread far and wide. The fast train to the degradation of professionalism will ruin this company faster than uncle's money swindling schemes. We need to realize as the primary commodity this company has we are more in control of the pace of destruction than even KR himself.

In a very ironic twist, the union which protects our right to be professional is the only thing that can save Kenn from Kenn. If you want a company able to employ you in 5 years and afford that nice Red Label cheddar you've been getting that is precisely WHY we need a union: to protect us from the ire of a management team that has zero respect for our professional expertise and input.

And we need that union to not be in Kenn's pocket.

Do you think regardless of the circumstances guys like Wookie, Windbags or Phildo would have your back in a similar position? Absolutely not. They would justify the lack of support by claiming you reap the consequences of your decisions, regardless of the circumstances that lead, incentivize or pressure you into those decisions. I can actually recall at least 2 of them saying this verbatim in the past but they are generals you are going to march behind? They are cowards. To them it is much easier to cower (by refusal to look at the whole picture) than risk uncle's ire. How can you ignore the fact this decertification game is just a straw man to get uncle back in complete control of "his" company.

If you don't want to believe me, get on your precious porn lounge and ask them out of the gate what their game plan to protect these pilots is, right now, regardless of any further information. Maybe I'm wrong and they'll give a stellar (and believable) answer we can get behind but I'm betting they won't.

I feel bad for the crew. I really do. But in a strange way maybe this continual degradation of professionalism and the proven safety risks inherent to the dedicated crew (or limited crew) concept is the best motovation we have had in a long time to get back to the truth of the matters at hand.

Without a doubt we pilots need a union (and a strong cohesive union) not because of money or pride or perks but because we need a strong, cohesive force backing us up against a management team that insists on a market strategy and standard of operations that will ruin our ability to truly exhibit the professionalisn our passengers are depending on.

Your divide and conquer buddies are making some poor and shortsighted decisions. If they truly want what's best for their fellow pilots, company and industry they do not have to reinvent the wheel. They just need to start helping to peddle the wheels already in place and stop falling for the traps that continue to delay progress toward a CBA we could be proud to have. That delay is the only thing management wants and your decert game is a silver platter to that end.

I can respect what you’re saying, and I’ll have to agree to disagree with you.

I don’t think this is a union vs. anti-union debate. If you haven’t noticed, this type of mishap is a trend with us. A trend that seems to happen on one side of the fence of our pilot group. It seems to affect both pro-union as well as anti-union Pilots as well. This is a problem with training pure and simple. Wisdom and judgment starts at the top. Unless we change the environment of flop’s training, expect more of the same.

 

[doh]

Pilot pushing, and that is the problem that is driving this trend, is a union/nonunion issue. Because of the divisive environment management has created, there is pressure on one side of the operation. The only reason our side of the operation has not faced similar pushing is because management hope for union decertification. If they are able to achieve this, they will push everyone.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Are you guys serious? Doh is right. This has nothing to do with ****ty pilots or lackluster training. This has everything to do with company culture from the top down and if I can add, hair brained management ideas and execution.

These posts are schizophrenic. We must realize it could all be us but then in the next breath have the audacity to say it won't because Flexjetters fart nuggets of gold in comparison to our red headed step brothers?

The degradation that has occurred at Options will occur (and is occuring) at Flexjet. The only thing slowing our roll is the union and the fact KR was not in the mix of our inception.

Every incident that we have heard about (because let's face the fact this company is very good at keeping these sorts of reports out of the press) can be specifically tied to pressure, fatigue, poor management ideas or execution. Dedicated crews lead to cockpit complacency. Pressure leads to poor decision making. Inadequate staffing leads to fatigue. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I will say it again: a strong cohesive union is our only chance to continue to conduct ourselves with the level of professionalism our passengers deserve.

This decert drive is not about different representation. It is about getting back to NO REPRESENTATION. Ask these asshats about their plan to just get voted in and step down. They have no plan to negotiate anything.

Keep in mind if you send in a card you are not voting for a vote. You are in fact simply handing KR back every ability to run your career into the ground, unfettered, unopposed.

 

[el raton]

Pilot pushing, and that is the problem that is driving this trend, is a union/nonunion issue. Because of the divisive environment management has created, there is pressure on one side of the operation. The only reason our side of the operation has not faced similar pushing is because management hope for union decertification. If they are able to achieve this, they will push everyone.

It’s about safet. When I look at every segment of my trip and decide whether it’s a go or no-go, the last thing that enters my mind is the company. If the numbers work, I go. If they don’t, I don’t. I’m not saying I won’t get caught in that situation where I judged wrong, but if I do, it won’t be because of the company pushing me into a bad situation. I feel I can speak for most of the pilots on the Flexjet side when I say, “ our judgement concerning safety is not in any way influenced in any way by pressure from the company”. You can take that to the bank.

If the company interferes and does unjustly fire me for a safety related decision I make, you can be sure that my days of not being financially secure are over.

Again.. I call bs on this being a union issue. If it is, then we have one weakest pilot groups in the industry.

 

[doh]

This industry is unionized. That is why it is strong.

 

[1folinepilot]

It’s about safet. When I look at every segment of my trip and decide whether it’s a go or no-go, the last thing that enters my mind is the company. If the numbers work, I go. If they don’t, I don’t. I’m not saying I won’t get caught in that situation where I judged wrong, but if I do, it won’t be because of the company pushing me into a bad situation. I feel I can speak for most of the pilots on the Flexjet side when I say, “ our judgement concerning safety is not in any way influenced in any way by pressure from the company”. You can take that to the bank.

If the company interferes and does unjustly fire me for a safety related decision I make, you can be sure that my days of not being financially secure are over.

Again.. I call bs on this being a union issue. If it is, then we have one weakest pilot groups in the industry.

Tim, Since you brought up the non reprisal management style at Flex I have to ask why is the Flops store front treated different? Are we not all under the same management team? Why is it when a Flops guy calls in with an issue about contaminated numbers, wx, MX, fuel stops etc the usual reply from the assistant cheif or PSM is usually a condescending initial “what do you want?” which leads to the next comment “ are you cancelling the trip? Or This is a high risk owner, or We don’t want to disservice the owner “. Those comments are almost as good as the PSM that replied “ whats your problem? I went in there all the time in the X”

Its not worth the argument more. I just do my job as I was origionally hired to do and I comlete my trips IAW all SOP , FAR and AFM limitations while treating my coworkers and owners as I wish to be treated with respect. If that is not what you want then fire me.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

It’s about safet. When I look at every segment of my trip and decide whether it’s a go or no-go, the last thing that enters my mind is the company. If the numbers work, I go. If they don’t, I don’t. I’m not saying I won’t get caught in that situation where I judged wrong, but if I do, it won’t be because of the company pushing me into a bad situation. I feel I can speak for most of the pilots on the Flexjet side when I say, “ our judgement concerning safety is not in any way influenced in any way by pressure from the company”. You can take that to the bank.

If the company interferes and does unjustly fire me for a safety related decision I make, you can be sure that my days of not being financially secure are over.

Again.. I call bs on this being a union issue. If it is, then we have one weakest pilot groups in the industry.

So el, you know I'm still on the Options side, but what I don't understand is you claim the Flex pilots aren't bbeing pressured by the company. So please tell me why the Flex pilots will burn a PTO day instead of calling fatigue? The ratio is almost 10 to 1. BTW our POI also want to know the answer.

 

[doh]

Tim, Since you brought up the non reprisal management style at Flex I have to ask why is the Flops store front treated different? Are we not all under the same management team? Why is it when a Flops guy calls in with an issue about contaminated numbers, wx, MX, fuel stops etc the usual reply from the assistant cheif or PSM is usually a condescending initial “what do you want?” which leads to the next comment “ are you cancelling the trip? Or This is a high risk owner, or We don’t want to disservice the owner “. Those comments are almost as good as the PSM that replied “ whats your problem? I went in there all the time in the X”

Its not worth the argument more. I just do my job as I was origionally hired to do and I comlete my trips IAW all SOP , FAR and AFM limitations while treating my coworkers and owners as I wish to be treated with respect. If that is not what you want then fire me.

Tim? Who is Tim? The rat is JJ.

 

[el raton]

So el, you know I'm still on the Options side, but what I don't understand is you claim the Flex pilots aren't bbeing pressured by the company. So please tell me why the Flex pilots will burn a PTO day instead of calling fatigue? The ratio is almost 10 to 1. BTW our POI also want to know the answer.

I really doubt the poi cares about pilots taking pto days.

 

[doh]

I really doubt the poi cares about pilots taking pto days.

He doesn’t care about pto per se, but he does care about fatigue. Management were complaining to him about the number of fatigue calls on the Options side. They compared the number of fatigue calls on the Flex side and tried to make the case that Options pilots were making bogus fatigue calls. We showed him the number of sick calls (now referred to as pto days) Flex pilots make downline. The ratio is 10 on the Flex side for every 1 on the Options side. Since we did not have Weingarten like rights at that time, the POI realized Flex pilots were not calling in fatigued because they were afraid of management retaliation. Instead, Flex pilots were calling in sick. If you look at all the numbers, Flex pilots and Options pilots have the same amount of “lost time”. So the POI asked management to explain why there were so many sick calls (pto days) on the Flex side. So while he doesn’t care about pto per se, he does care about safety and he knows what the numbers really mean.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

That last question was for you el.

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El, its sounds like you are guessing again.