N452fx

[FracMonkey]

So you Phenom guys; are you trying to shut us down ?

That’s about the stupidest thing I’ve ever read, EVER! Yeah, the Phenom pilots are intentionally putting incidents and accidents on their records to prove a point. Jesus, could your ego be any bigger? While there is a LOT of investigating to be done early indications are that there was black ice all over the area, not just at the airport. Could that have been a factor? Too early to say, but to suggest that a group of pilots would intentionally jeopardize their lives in the moment and their careers in the long run is the epitome of arrogant. Get over yourself, jackass!

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Nothing to see here. They will be retrained and back out on 6am airlines.

 

[FracMonkey]

Nothing to see here. They will be retrained and back out on 6am airlines.

Doubtful. RL pilots get retrained. Phenom polots get fired......

 

[J3guy]

That’s about the stupidest thing I’ve ever read, EVER! Yeah, the Phenom pilots are intentionally putting incidents and accidents on their records to prove a point. Jesus, could your ego be any bigger? While there is a LOT of investigating to be done early indications are that there was black ice all over the area, not just at the airport. Could that have been a factor? Too early to say, but to suggest that a group of pilots would intentionally jeopardize their lives in the moment and their careers in the long run is the epitome of arrogant. Get over yourself, jackass!

So if there was Black Ice everywhere, why in the world would they choose to land?? Pressure from the company? Complete lack of judgement? There should have been red flags on this everywhere, which would warrant field condition reports. Seriously, how many airplanes can options run off runways and still exist?!

 

[EngineThunder]

A Beechjet landed 19 minutes before them without incident.

 

[Propilot77]

Maybe they should Enable automatic bumpers on each side of the runway kinda of like in a bowling alley when a kid is up so they don’t get a gutter ball.

 

[jetmaster727]

That’s about the stupidest thing I’ve ever read, EVER! Yeah, the Phenom pilots are intentionally putting incidents and accidents on their records to prove a point. Jesus, could your ego be any bigger? While there is a LOT of investigating to be done early indications are that there was black ice all over the area, not just at the airport. Could that have been a factor? Too early to say, but to suggest that a group of pilots would intentionally jeopardize their lives in the moment and their careers in the long run is the epitome of arrogant. Get over yourself, jackass!

Man, talk about stupid. You are a total idiot. Have you never heard of sarcasm you dumbass!

 

[DirtyBeech]

That’s about the stupidest thing I’ve ever read, EVER! Yeah, the Phenom pilots are intentionally putting incidents and accidents on their records to prove a point. Jesus, could your ego be any bigger? While there is a LOT of investigating to be done early indications are that there was black ice all over the area, not just at the airport. Could that have been a factor? Too early to say, but to suggest that a group of pilots would intentionally jeopardize their lives in the moment and their careers in the long run is the epitome of arrogant. Get over yourself, jackass!

Early indications suggest that one side of the house keeps running planes off runways, in some cases causing hull losses, by crossing thresholds at ref + 50, landing long and fast with excessive tailwinds in a thunderstorm, landing unstable with excessive tailwinds ahead of a front, choosing a 4000 fr runway when 6500 was available and then landing fast with a tailwind or flying their plane through hail because radars are hard to read and stuff.

So I think the one side of the house can be forgiven for believing, probably correctly, that the other side done gone and fudged up again.

The FAA believed that the next Flops incident would be in May based on recent history. They were too optimistic apparently.

Let’s hope that the crew in question wasn’t culpable and were the victims of failures or conditions beyond their control. But I wouldn’t hold my breath on that.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Well we will see. I have flown with both of the pilots involved. What separates this incident from the others is the fact that This is the first time an unabashed Union supporter was involved. He was always conservative in his runway calculations, and was willing to go toe to toe when faced with a pilot pusher. The facts will come out in due time.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Early indications suggest that one side of the house keeps running planes off runways, in some cases causing hull losses, by crossing thresholds at ref + 50, landing long and fast with excessive tailwinds in a thunderstorm, landing unstable with excessive tailwinds ahead of a front, choosing a 4000 fr runway when 6500 was available and then landing fast with a tailwind or flying their plane through hail because radars are hard to read and stuff.

So I think the one side of the house can be forgiven for believing, probably correctly, that the other side done gone and fudged up again.

The FAA believed that the next Flops incident would be in May based on recent history. They were too optimistic apparently.

Let’s hope that the crew in question wasn’t culpable and were the victims of failures or conditions beyond their control. But I wouldn’t hold my breath on that.

The big question is why?

There is much speculation, several possible answers.

Look back at my 10 plus years history on Flightinfo and you'll see I have never been an advocate of our training department. I know the knee-jerk response will be our training is better but the fact is there has never been substantive proof our schoolhouse makes us better over any other outfit out there similar in size and scope. And many great organizations with "substandard" in-house training departments (yes several of our instructors have the hubris to declare our superiority to outfits like AA and DAL) have better records when factored.

So why? Is it the caliber of pilot? That's a little harsh and arrogant. Is it their FOM? Well if that's true it won't be long before FX crews are culpable. Is it the union? Naysayers will say yes but that's just foolish and ridiculous hot air, especially since most of the pilots were anti union at the time of the incidents. Is it fatigue? Pressure? Maintenance? Aircraft peculiarities? We need to personally investigate every possible cause and do a self evaluation. If we determine, personally, the issue is more company than pilot, well...

One thing is for sure. The FAA was already expressing their concerns this was a COMPANY issue. To beat their incident expectation by 4 months is not good. I would not be surprised to see them ground the fleet and make other recommendations that put other fleets under the microscope.

One thing's for sure. We cannot handle a fleet shutdown. We are spread paper thin as it is... are you starting to see Kenn maybe is not the aviation business god all RL pilots hail him to be?

 

[DirtyBeech]

Well we will see. I have flown with both of the pilots involved. What separates this incident from the others is the fact that This is the first time an unabashed Union supporter was involved. He was always conservative in his runway calculations, and was willing to go toe to toe when faced with a pilot pusher. The facts will come out in due time.

Untrue. A very vocal union supporter who posts here destroyed his airplane in fine fashion in one of those incidents.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

OK. I'll give you that one. He certainly was vocal but he also was not shy about attacking fellow Union members.

 

[DirtyBeech]

OK. I'll give you that one. He certainly was vocal but he also was not shy about attacking fellow Union members.

It’s not a union/non union issue.

That’s what? 6 incidents in the last 24 months? 7? I’ve lost count. All on one side of the house. That’s a pretty discernible trend line. It’s cultural in my opinion. And that’s not to say that there aren’t a lot of really god aviators from the Cleveland side. I’ve flown with a number of them. I think you also have a significant number of walking bad idea machines in your ranks, and a mgt philosophy that that encourages questionable decision making.

I would say that the safety bar has been lowered incrementally, and the former Scheduling practices that lasted about two months after the merger put the onus on cutting corners to make departures work out.

 

[Imissmypilot]

It’s not a union/non union issue.

That won't stop the union haters from trying to make this the union's fault somehow. It's already started.

That’s what? 6 incidents in the last 24 months? 7? I’ve lost count. All on one side of the house. That’s a pretty discernible trend line. It’s cultural in my opinion.

Ahhhhhh. Culture. That ****ing word again. Funny how Kenn was the one who tried to introduce the culture argument into his union busting. Fact is KENN HIMSELF is the anti-Midas. Everything he touches rots. Everything. His management principles kill culture. Read the book. Figure out how quickly you'd divorce if you ran your "family" the way Kenn advocates.

And that’s not to say that there aren’t a lot of really god aviators from the Cleveland side. I’ve flown with a number of them. I think you also have a significant number of walking bad idea machines in your ranks, and a mgt philosophy that that encourages questionable decision making.

Absolutely. For all of his talk about creating 20% career and releasing the 80% from trapped status, I'm astounded by how many of his employees (even some - hell especially some- of the IGMs and FoKs) feel trapped. You cannot take a pilot with 10 plus years of seniority and "release" them into the pool of a seniority driven industry and not have them lose significantly. Even in the case of all of this Red Label frog jumping the regar line pilots are sometimes better off staying than going elsewhere but it is even worse because now you created a benefit class (the out of seniority upgrades) that didn't earn it but can't afford to leave it. Kenn's own ideas are creating the trap not breaking it. How can people not get it?

I would say that the safety bar has been lowered incrementally, and the former Scheduling practices that lasted about two months after the merger put the onus on cutting corners to make departures work out.

Ding ding ding. Winner winner chicken dinner. I am amazed at how often the words "professional pace" get uttered around here with very little understanding of what it really means. To half our group (and management) it means rush and risk and get the ****ing job done NOW. No! Professional pace means do your ****ing job professionally no matter how long it takes. Don't purposefully delay, don't be slow but take the time to be a ****ing professional. It couldn't be any simpler than that and a pilot who doesn't understand everything that means is part of - if not THE - problem.