Mythbusters, Plane on a treadmill..

[Papps]

if youre answer is anything but "yes it will" than you need to read up on the difference between ground speed and airspeed

 

[Max Q]

Again, the original question is right there.

When I read your question, the answer seems to me, No the airplane won't fly. No relative motion = no fly.

Now, if you want to change your question, to what they did on MythBusters, then the plane will fly.

Oh, and I had Kari Byron (MythBuster CHick) on my flight from ANC the other day. Niiiice.

That wasn't the original question. Mythbusters didn't "change" anything. Even if it WAS the question, one should realize that "...treadmill speeds up keeping the plane in the same relative position" is about the dumbest most ignorant POS thing a pilot can say.

It is no surprise, however, that one would say that particular phrase was in the original question. Most naysayers are unable to swallow their pride after realizing how stupid they sound arguing on the internet for months about something they should know about, but don't.

I would hit Kari like the fist of an angry god.

-Brett

 

[siucavflight]

It will fly.

 

[WabiSabi]

I think this thread is about 10 pages too long

 

[CFI2766]

I would hit Kari like the fist of an angry god.

-Brett[/quote]

True dat.

However, it should be noted that her mass, much like the length of this debate, has increased over the years. Just sayin'.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

That wasn't the original question. Mythbusters didn't "change" anything. Even if it WAS the question, one should realize that "...treadmill speeds up keeping the plane in the same relative position" is about the dumbest most ignorant POS thing a pilot can say.

Okay, I'm just quoting here. Tell that to CooperVane.

Let's say I asked a question:

I've got $5 million that I want to divide 5 ways, evenly.

You could say, duh, $1 million.

Or, you could say, duh, no pilot has five million! So, let's say you're lucky with $500, so the answer is $100.

I've got a laser beam that can shoot through the planet. If I point straight down on NY, where will it come out? Indian Ocean? or Nowhere, because no one has a laser that can do that?

All I'm saying is, Cooper's question said the plane didn't move. If it doesn't move, it doesn't matter if it's stuck in glue, missing wheels, bolted to the floor, or on a mythical treadmill: without Relative Wind, the plane won't produce lift.

The important point is that people who read CooperVane's question literally would see one thing, and people who put the real world in mind would see differently.

I would hit Kari like the fist of an angry god.

-Brett

Oh, yeah!

 

[Herman Bloom]

Okay, I'm just quoting here. Tell that to CooperVane.

Let's say I asked a question:

I've got $5 million that I want to divide 5 ways, evenly.

You could say, duh, $1 million.

Or, you could say, duh, no pilot has five million! So, let's say you're lucky with $500, so the answer is $100.

I've got a laser beam that can shoot through the planet. If I point straight down on NY, where will it come out? Indian Ocean? or Nowhere, because no one has a laser that can do that?

All I'm saying is, Cooper's question said the plane didn't move. If it doesn't move, it doesn't matter if it's stuck in glue, missing wheels, bolted to the floor, or on a mythical treadmill: without Relative Wind, the plane won't produce lift.

The important point is that people who read CooperVane's question literally would see one thing, and people who put the real world in mind would see differently.




Oh, yeah!

So: CooperVane is either a) a very successful troll or b) a total idiot.

B

Why pose the question in the first place if you stipulate that the plane doesn't move? Totally defeats the purpose of running this "thought experiment," which is designed to tease out the salient physics.

 

[Papps]

Airplanes have ground speed and airspeed. why are there a crap load of posts on two threads about this. Would a plane going 200kias flying with a 200kt tail wind go 400kts GS or would it drop out of the sky. Hope that question dosen't spark up a new thread.

 

[Say Again Over]

So: CooperVane is either a) a very successful troll or b) a total idiot.

I'll go with B.

 

[Singlecoil]

Can someone please post the original Coopervane question/scenario? There has got to be a good reason why this isn't obvious to everybody. The way I work it in my mind, it is totally irrelevant if the treadmill is moving forward, backwards, or not at all. The plane still takes off.
Now if you had said that a plane is on a treadmill with the parking brake set, then my opinion would change.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Can someone please post the original Coopervane question/scenario? There has got to be a good reason why this isn't obvious to everybody.

From the man, the myth, the legend, CooperVane himself:

Let's say you had a giant treadmill with an airplane on it
I thought I would dust off this old gem to kill the PIC thread.

Let's say you had a giant treadmill with an airplane on it.

As you add power and begin to move for the takoff roll, the treadmill speeds up and keeps the plane in the same relative position. As the plane goes faster, the treadmill speeds up, always maintaining the aircraft's relative position.

Would you ever be able to take off?

GO!!
_____________

 

[PCL_128]

Coopervane rewrote the original question in an incorrect manner. The original internet sensation question never states that the airplane remains in the same relative position. It merely states that the treadmill spins in reverse at the same speed as the airplane's wheels. Despite this, people have still been arguing that the plane can't take off for a couple of years now. The problem really isn't Coopervane's question (although it was rewritten incorrectly), the problem is that people don't understand basic physics.

 

[pbruk]

For those of you dis'n Andy Neill, he is an Army warrior who can easily take any of you blindfolded. You should consider who you're messing with before striking the keys. Andy, hope all is well at OO.

Here's another you tube treadmill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk&NR=1

 

[Herman Bloom]

For those of you dis'n Andy Neill, he is an Army warrior who can easily take any of you blindfolded. You should consider who you're messing with before striking the keys. Andy, hope all is well at OO.

Here's another you tube treadmill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk&NR=1

Unfortunately that won't make him any smarter.

 

[JimNtexas]

For those of you dis'n Andy Neill, he is an Army warrior who can easily take any of you blindfolded. You should consider who you're messing with before striking the keys.

I'm sure Andy is a fine man, but his actions in the physical world are governed by Sir Isaac Newton's laws of motion, just like the plane on the treadmill.

 

[Caveman]

I couldn't bear to read this whole thread so I skipped to the end. Forgive me if this has already been posted. The treadmill is a distractor. How fast the wheels are spinning is irrelevant. How fast the treadmill is moving is irrelevant. OTOH, how long the treadmill is is extremely important.

If the aircraft doesn't accelerate in relationship to it's surroundings it isn't going to fly. Period. Forget the treadmill belt. It can spin as fast or as slow as you want. Unless the aircraft accelerates relative to it's fixed surroundings it ain't gonna fly. Imagine the belt spinning and the a/c has just enough thrust to offset the tire/belt/wheel bearing friction, probably barely above idle. So, there we are. A small amount of thrust, the belt is moving one way, the wheels are spinning the other way and the airplane is MOTIONLESS. Therefore, no airflow, no flight. Add some more thrust and the a/c starts to accelerate down the runway (treadmill). Now you have airflow over the wings. Get going fast enough before you run out of runway (treadmill) and you will fly. How fast the wheels are spinning or how fast the belt is moving has nothing to do with it.

Some of you are trying to picture a MOTIONLESS aircraft at full thrust sitting on a spinning treadmill and then somehow it magically levitates and flys away. Never gonna happen. The a/c still must accelerate down the runway (treadmill) and create some airflow in order to get airborne. The guys that say it will fly aren't telling you that you need a really long treadmill to make this work. They are letting you imagine a treadmill barely the size of the a/c and you keep 'seeing' an airplane that suddenly just lifts off and flys away. In the case of the ultralight on the show it needed about 100' of runway (treadmill) to demonstrate how it works. If the demonstration was done on a 25 foot traditional looking treadmill, the demonstration would have failed. With or without a treadmill, the ultralight still needs about 100' to take off. The only difference is that a tiny additional amount of thrust was needed to offset the friction from the tarp moving under the wheels.

I saw the Mythbusters episode. IMO, they did a lousy job of explaining how, what, when and why the airplane flew. They just demonstrated that it would fly and acted amazed. It isn't amazing. It's basic physics and Aviation 101.

 

[JimNtexas]

deleted because I misread the prior post.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I couldn't bear to read this whole thread so I skipped to the end. Forgive me if this has already been posted. The treadmill is a distractor. How fast the wheels are spinning is irrelevant. How fast the treadmill is moving is irrelevant. OTOH, how long the treadmill is is extremely important.

If the aircraft doesn't accelerate in relationship to it's surroundings it isn't going to fly. Period. Forget the treadmill belt. It can spin as fast or as slow as you want. Unless the aircraft accelerates relative to it's fixed surroundings it ain't gonna fly. Imagine the belt spinning and the a/c has just enough thrust to offset the tire/belt/wheel bearing friction, probably barely above idle. So, there we are. A small amount of thrust, the belt is moving one way, the wheels are spinning the other way and the airplane is MOTIONLESS. Therefore, no airflow, no flight. Add some more thrust and the a/c starts to accelerate down the runway (treadmill). Now you have airflow over the wings. Get going fast enough before you run out of runway (treadmill) and you will fly. How fast the wheels are spinning or how fast the belt is moving has nothing to do with it.

Some of you are trying to picture a MOTIONLESS aircraft at full thrust sitting on a spinning treadmill and then somehow it magically levitates and flys away. Never gonna happen. The a/c still must accelerate down the runway (treadmill) and create some airflow in order to get airborne. The guys that say it will fly aren't telling you that you need a really long treadmill to make this work. They are letting you imagine a treadmill barely the size of the a/c and you keep 'seeing' an airplane that suddenly just lifts off and flys away. In the case of the ultralight on the show it needed about 100' of runway (treadmill) to demonstrate how it works. If the demonstration was done on a 25 foot traditional looking treadmill, the demonstration would have failed. With or without a treadmill, the ultralight still needs about 100' to take off. The only difference is that a tiny additional amount of thrust was needed to offset the friction from the tarp moving under the wheels.

I saw the Mythbusters episode. IMO, they did a lousy job of explaining how, what, when and why the airplane flew. They just demonstrated that it would fly and acted amazed. It isn't amazing. It's basic physics and Aviation 101.

I didn't think that the plane would "levitate" off of the treadmill. I have always said that it would take off just like normal. The wheel rotation speed would be equal to the groundspeed PLUS whatever speed the treadmill is moving. So, if it normally rotates at 140 knots, and the treadmill is going 100 knots, then the wheel speed would be 240 knots. The airspeed will be the same as always though, 140 knots.

The point is taken though, the treadmill is irrelevant. The plane departs the "runway" whether it is a treadmill or a runway.

 

[dash8driver]

the only person amazed on the mythbuster show was that ultralight pilot. it was pretty obvious that the "amazement" shown by the hosts were sarcastic.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I've already stated that my question was worded differently and INCORRECTLY from the original question.

It was meant to be a light hearted discussion to stop a stupid thread about logging PIC in the right seat. I wish I hadn't brought it up.

It should have been written either:

A:"the treadmill is DESIGNED to keep the airplane stationary"

or

B:"As the airplane adds power, it ATTEMPTS to keep the airplane in a relative position"

Can we go back to arguing with 1000 hour wonders logging PIC in the right seat?