My response to SWA package!

[Dolce]

KP,

Just to make sure I'm reading your post correctly, you did not think twice about striking, meaning you crossed the picket line?

"I didn't think twice about striking!" equals strike.
"I didn't think twice about not striking!" equals EAL scab hired by AAI!

I know, I know...AAI voted 97% to strike against their crappy management and industry leading work conditions/contract, but did those guys learn their lesson after the first time or were they the dissenting 3%?

D

 

[Bill Nelson]

You couldn't grill your way out of a wet paper bag.

All grill no skill but I enjoy it anyhow.

 

[freightdogfred]

ZU,



You really want to go there? Let me ask you a question. Who's the bigger scab airline past or present...CAL, UAL or AAI? You can break it down with total numbers or ratios, whatever you want.

D

CAL, without a doubt. Followed closely by UAL. AAI would be a very distant 3rd.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Retards with no reading comprehension, apparently.

How horrible must this information have been to get everyone spooled up? In this packet were there threats against ALPA? Was there the threat of a raid? Were there empty promises? Anything negative said about your merger committee or MEC leadership? What did SWAPA do besides give you information that's good to know?

A buddy of mine from my UPT at Reese is at AAI and showed me the booklet thingy over FaceTime on our iPads. It looks real nice and takes his credit hours and applies SWA rates to them...holy crap! All I can say is that is a lot of dough to be left on the table. Insurance info was cool too. Going from his current pay to what was in the brochure is HUGE. That's not a little and irrelevant raise - that's life changing. We're talking a big difference in life options at that level of income. Hell, I wish I made what SWA FOs were making...at a minimum they are above most industry Captains.

He didn't show me every page and wasn't irritated by the information either. At this point he feels like there is so little information that anything he gets is welcome provided it's not the same ole BS from the company. He also added that all forums are bull$hi+ and they are comprised of the same 15 - 20 people spreading their version of reality, and that reality is not the view of the majority. He has told me that all he wants out of this deal is to not go to the bottom of a list, make more money and have a better career outlook than he had before.

Everyone chillax and think about the good and not focus on the bad stuff for once. Remember, most would kill to be in both your shoes.

Did he tell you that SWAPA used 13 months in their calculations of "credit hours earned for the 12 month period of May 2010 to May 2011"? I guess it was was a leap century and there was an extra month last year. What a joke. By adding the extra month, that adds a disparity of $9000 to $17000 or 20-30% . Nobody questions that WN pays better, but if you have to lie about your numbers on top of that, it's pretty desperate.

Seniority is forever and it's not for sale.

 

[Lear70]

Well, you can't say AF guys aren't smart because they did choose the Force over the Army, Navy, and Marines.

Did he tell you that SWAPA used 13 months in their calculations of "credit hours earned for the 12 month period of May 2010 to May 2011"? I guess it was was a leap century and there was an extra month last year. What a joke. By adding the extra month, that adds a disparity of $9000 to $17000 or 20-30% . Nobody questions that WN pays better, but if you have to lie about your numbers on top of that, it's pretty desperate.

Seniority is forever and it's not for sale.

Not to mention it looks like they calculated last year's pay at our old rates prior to December rather than using our new rates and projecting forward for a true comparison using what we fly yearly. Makes the pay disparity appear much greater than it is but it doesn't change the fact that the average SWA F/O makes between $50k-60k a year more than I do with a similar schedule.

You can't argue the money, no way around it. It's not quite as much as some have asserted, but it's substantial, nonetheless. I figure somewhere in the $1.7-2.0 Million more over what remains of my career, depending on time to upgrade. Very thankful to be in this position, and have no doubt it will all get worked out.

 

[SWA/FO]

$50k-60k a year more than I do with a similar schedule.

WOW, what do I get out of the deal? Everyone gets something, right?

 

[bravodude]

Listen I'm all for the best seniority that the Airtran pilots can get. The thing here is I keep hearing how welcome we should feel. Also the packet says wings of welcome. I do not feel very welcome when we are not getting extra staffing, extra ability to swap trips, and most importantly paying us what a SW pilot makes. So don't send me info on what I could be making if I agree to some crappy seniority number. You really thing we don't know what we would be making over there? Give me a break!

How about you guys actually say hello when you walk by a SWA pilot at the airport. Every time I walk through the airport and try to say hello to an AT pilot they wont even look my way. If you guys want to feel welcome try being a little friendly it may go a long way!

 

[waveflyer]

Where did this "seniority is forever" thing come from?
It's too ignorant

 

[jetflier]

I've never claimed to wise, old or an owl.

I have, however, been around the industry my entire life (dad was a Pan Am/Delta pilot), and have been working as an airline pilot in scheduled service for almost 25 years. Between my previous airline shutting down and SW, I did 4 months of that at DHL, if that counts.

I was, even at the tender age of 24, wise enough to pass on the EAL interview, 3 months before the strike, since I saw the writing on the wall and would never scab in any case. This is more than I can say about the vast majority of original VJ guys.

I don't know about LeJeune Rd, but I did cross 36th street to go to my Pan Am interview in April '89. I also gladly paid my ALPA strike assessment during the EAL strike and beyond.

I've been furloughed, bought, downgraded, upgraded, pay cut, pay raise, chapter 11'd, closed down, new hired, interviewed etc. enough times to know that you guys have a stellar opportunity here, even if your Entitled, Sensitive New Age Pilot sensibilities can't/won't accept it.

There are plenty of pilots out there who would be happy to trade places with the AAI guys now, but you already know that.

Just had to jump in and say that I have known TRI since the Pan Am Express days. He is the pilots pilot, great guy, loaded with integrity, honest and truthful. Never been a SCAB.

 

[27 driver]

How about you guys actually say hello when you walk by a SWA pilot at the airport. Every time I walk through the airport and try to say hello to an AT pilot they wont even look my way. If you guys want to feel welcome try being a little friendly it may go a long way!

That runs both ways. The last 3 encounters I have had with SWA crews has been the complete opposite. It was LUV Captains that wouldn't even look at us when the rest of the crew was very nice.

 

[redflyer65]

Where did this "seniority is forever" thing come from?
It's too ignorant

It came from some Airtran folks that decided to grasp for straws. I mean when you are gaining over 2 million dollars for your career and don't want to give the otherside anything in return, you have to come up with some slick PR terms.

 

[canyonblue]

You can't argue the money, no way around it. It's not quite as much as some have asserted, but it's substantial, nonetheless. I figure somewhere in the $1.7-2.0 Million more over what remains of my career, depending on time to upgrade. Very thankful to be in this position, and have no doubt it will all get worked out.

It's the exact information all of us looked at when we left our previous employment to work for Southwest Airlines, and we all started at the bottom to be part of it. Not implying anything here, so don't run off with that quote, just stating that all of us at SWA wanted to know what career expectations we would expect since we were leaving current employment, some of us from another Major Airline. It is true that the money can change over the years, but you have to look at Southwest as the conservative approach, the 3% a year, compared to some other airlines more aggressive approaches. My 401k is somewhat conservative, and after the stock marked collapse a few years ago, it didn't take me long to recoup my losses. For the aggressive types, it took a lot longer.

 

[canyonblue]

Seniority is forever and it's not for sale.

Nothing is forever.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

It came from some Airtran folks that decided to grasp for straws. I mean when you are gaining over 2 million dollars for your career and don't want to give the otherside anything in return, you have to come up with some slick PR terms.

Obviously you don't consider your seniority as trivial as grasping at straws, if you did, this would go a lot smoother.

 

[redflyer65]

Did you completely miss this part of my statement?

"and don't want to give the otherside anything in return"

What do the Southwest pilots gain in this SLI? Fair and equitable cuts both ways. I'm hoping for a well thought out response..

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Obviously you don't consider your seniority as trivial as grasping at straws, if you did, this would go a lot smoother.

The fact is that both in career earnings and relative seniority over the length of your career you will win out of this deal no matter how the list is constructed. I can tell you the same is not true for me. Maybe AAI ALPA will send a FEDEX package to my house explaining the loses that I can expect over the course of my career as a result of this acquisition.

 

[Lear70]

If you're looking for EQUIVALENT gain, you're not going to find it. In just about every integration in the history of aviation, one side has gained more than the other, whether it's increased pay rates, a better retirement plan, what have you. In this example, yes, our MONETARY increase in career potential can't be evened out, there's just not enough money to spread throughout 6,000+ pilots.

That being said, yes, I believe the Southwest pilots should benefit from this transaction. I believe they WILL in the form of increased upgrade expectations, company growth and increased stability, increased profit sharing from increased revenue and cost synergies, etc. Those aren't my claims, those are what GK has told investors time and time again about this deal. As much as your pilots claim to have total faith in him, you also have to have total faith in his projections of future benefit.

As for what IMMEDIATE MONETARY gains SWAPA pilots may gain from this, that's something you'll have to communicate to your NC. It wouldn't surprise me if Tuesday's presentation by SWA management included some monetary incentives to help "grease the wheels" for the SWAPA pilots but, again, there's just not enough money for SWAPA pilots to receive from management that will match what AAI pilots will receive from management for their work over their Southwest career.

Yes, your union negotiated those rates that AAI pilots will work under, but your union will receive dues from us in exchange for negotiating those rates - your new hires didn't have to pay for them in advance as a condition of their employment, and neither should we. That whole argument just doesn't hold up.

In short, SWAPA pilots should definitely benefit from this merger. Protecting your career advancement under the new growth model is something your NC will work out with our MC. Additional compensation is something your NC will be working with your management on.

Anything else just isn't supported by the arbitration process. Hopefully those gains your NC negotiates with SWA management and a more profitable company (according to GK, not me) will be worth it for you to endorse what your NC sends to vote. Only you can decide whether it is or not when the time comes.

 

[redflyer65]

If you're looking for EQUIVALENT gain, you're not going to find it. In just about every integration in the history of aviation, one side has gained more than the other, whether it's increased pay rates, a better retirement plan, what have you. In this example, yes, our MONETARY increase in career potential can't be evened out, there's just not enough money to spread throughout 6,000+ pilots.

That being said, yes, I believe the Southwest pilots should benefit from this transaction. I believe they WILL in the form of increased upgrade expectations, company growth and increased stability, increased profit sharing from increased revenue and cost synergies, etc. Those aren't my claims, those are what GK has told investors time and time again about this deal. As much as your pilots claim to have total faith in him, you also have to have total faith in his projections of future benefit.

As for what IMMEDIATE MONETARY gains SWAPA pilots may gain from this, that's something you'll have to communicate to your NC. It wouldn't surprise me if Tuesday's presentation by SWA management included some monetary incentives to help "grease the wheels" for the SWAPA pilots but, again, there's just not enough money for SWAPA pilots to receive from management that will match what AAI pilots will receive from management for their work over their Southwest career.

Yes, your union negotiated those rates that AAI pilots will work under, but your union will receive dues from us in exchange for negotiating those rates - your new hires didn't have to pay for them in advance as a condition of their employment, and neither should we. That whole argument just doesn't hold up.

In short, SWAPA pilots should definitely benefit from this merger. Protecting your career advancement under the new growth model is something your NC will work out with our MC. Additional compensation is something your NC will be working with your management on.

Anything else just isn't supported by the arbitration process. Hopefully those gains your NC negotiates with SWA management and a more profitable company (according to GK, not me) will be worth it for you to endorse what your NC sends to vote. Only you can decide whether it is or not when the time comes.

Nice post Lear. We don't hear too many folks from the Airtran side acknowledging some of the things you mention.

RF

 

[Ty Webb]

Nice post Lear. We don't hear too many folks from the Airtran side acknowledging some of the things you mention.

RF

That's because you're too busy kicking us in the nuts to hear much.

 

[redflyer65]

Nevermind Ty. Back to your regular programming....