My Rant on the STUPID & SPINELESS Flight Options Management!

[netjetwife]

Ooops...:blush: Thanks for the reminder, Grumpy. Spell-checker doesn't catch errors like that.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Y'Know, B19, I just got off this week from my first stint as a union volunteer at NJ.....

Guess what? I actually saw a pilot group and management that for the most part, worked together to achieve a common goal, long term success and company prosperity. I watched management and union officials work together to fix a problem that had arisen. I saw a vice president actually step out of a meeting to personally welcome a new volunteer and thank him for stepping up and sacrifing his personal time to help the cause!!! I've seen the pilots side of things before, now I have seen it from another perspective, and I still like it.

But, all unions are bad, and they destroy good things, right B19?

I told you before, B19, the argument you have tried for months now is the old way... and it is no longer the way..sorry to break it to you again.
Flops management has a choice, drop the ego and play nice with their employees, or face the alternative. They have the power to right this ship if they choose.
They might wanna hurry, though, the bridge is smoldering and the wind is picking up.


Now, unless you can come up with a more logical argument than what you have tried and frankly failed at conveying here....shaddup and git back in yer hole.

HiSpeed

Oh, I get it. I’ve personally worked with pilot unions that make NJ look like a bunch of pansies. Just like a two year old child, if the union gets what they want they will work with the company and play nice-nice. Yeah, I've seen the point where unions do as you describe. And months later I was laid off directly as a result of the exact same union when they didn't get what they wanted in negotiations.

If you’ve read my posts, and understand anything that I’ve stated, my biggest disgust for unions is that when things don’t go the way the union wants them to where it all falls apart.

Unions do not work well under pressure. That’s when they fail the most. When a company is critical on finances, the union is the last, not the first, to step up to the plate and offer concessions.

I’ve seen critical safety programs watered down because unions don’t want to expose their membership to possible problems. That’s why we’ll never see cameras in the cockpit even though it is a critical item for safety.

When the union doesn’t get what they want in negotiations, they stomp their little feet like a child and threaten strike, etc.

No, I get it. The question is, do you get it?

While I’m at it, did you get paid to volunteer?

No?

If you didn’t and NJW’s husband does, that proves my point that NJW has a personal agenda, that her husband is paid by the union for his "volunteerism" (I call it working for the union instead of NJ) thus she has a personal, financial interest in the success of the union. That’s the only reason she is a staunch supporter.

And last but not least, if he gets paid and you didn’t…. You’re a sucker…

 

[fischman]

Unions shouldn't HAVE to be the first to make concessions.

Management should take a concession before they ask 1 employee for a pay cut.

If they do a piss poor job, why should they get to line their pockets with gold?

The PIC is directly responsible for the flight just like the CEO is directly responsible for the company.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Unions shouldn't HAVE to be the first to make concessions.

Management should take a concession before they ask 1 employee for a pay cut.

If they do a piss poor job, why should they get to line their pockets with gold?

The PIC is directly responsible for the flight just like the CEO is directly responsible for the company.

Fischman,

When things go bad, all the cuts should happen at the same time. The union and management should be about to work together and make those concessions unilaterally, but it never happens that way.

The union is always, and I mean ALWAYS choking that golden goose until there is no more to take.

You are saying they shouldn't have to be the first, I'm saying they shouldn't be the last. When the pressure hits, and only after the rest of the employees in the company and all the fat has been taken off will the union act. And when it happens, the carrier is usually in bankruptcy or on the fringe of it.

When everything is great, everybody's happy.

When it goes bad, the unions always act last.

To prove my point, it's clear in the upcoming year where the biggest financial threat is coming from in all carriers. It's clear it's fuel. It's not bad management, it's the ecomomy. All the carriers have just come out of bankrupcty and are as lean as could be. Watch the labor strife over the next year or two rear it's ugly head. The unions know it's fuel, but they will never try and balance the finances.

It will be ugly.

 

[netjetwife]

Good point, Fisch! Remember when NJA turned down a Union offered system of automatic concessions? During 2005 negotiations the Union designed a profit sharing pay system with concessions built in should the company fall on hard times. The pay system was very fair, but management wasn't interested. Profits were shared in the 2007 IBB signing bonus though. Kudos to the team-work that is evident between the Company and NJ Pilot Association. If the FLOPS would follow that example FltOps and the pilots would be much better off. Less talented managers at least have the sense to emulate successful companies. Arrogant CEOs like Sheeringa just run a company into the ground and then walk away with a golden parachute, leaving a trail of damaged careers and hurt families behind them... I suggest that MS has as much empathy for his victims as he does integrity--that's about nil.

Speaking of fair systems, NJASAP volunteers don't make money serving the pilotgroup, but thanks to the stipend they no longer lose income (as many had previously done) from missed OT and holiday pay. It was decided that it's enough to give up personal time, working at home without compensation, without having to miss out on extra pay while working on joint Company-Association projects, and/or being the Steward on Duty in addition to flying the line. The stipend system shows appreciation and helps volunteers break even. The FLOPS could learn from 1108 how to treat workers right.

As an observation: B19 has refused to establish his credibility (current employer, position, etc) and has no credentials to talk about frac Union operations, mind-set, and relationship with management. He rudely shoves his alleged, unrelated, past experience in another industry into discussions of current 1108/NJASAP events. In sharp comparison, Union volunteers share reliable information and make observations grounded in reality--not FUD. It is painfully obvious (especially to those vindictively fired) that the FLOPS are acting out of selfishness--not the overworked/underpaid pilots.

PRO-MANAGEMENT POSTS SHOULD BE BOOTED OFF THIS THREAD. SHEERINGA GANG SUPPORTERS ARE AN INSULT TO THE BESIEGED FLIGHTOPS PILOTS AND THEIR LONG-SUFFERING FAMILIES.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Good point, Fisch! Remember when NJA turned down a Union offered system of automatic concessions? During 2005 negotiations the Union designed a profit sharing pay system with concessions built in should the company fall on hard times. The pay system was very fair, but management wasn't interested. Profits were shared in the 2007 IBB signing bonus though. Kudos to the team-work that is evident between the Company and NJ Pilot Association. If the FLOPS would follow that example FltOps and the pilots would be much better off. Less talented managers at least have the sense to emulate successful companies. Arrogant CEOs like Sheeringa just run a company into the ground and then walk away with a golden parachute, leaving a trail of damaged careers and hurt families behind them... I suggest that MS has as much empathy for his victims as he does integrity--that's about nil.

Speaking of fair systems, NJASAP volunteers don't make money serving the pilotgroup, but thanks to the stipend they no longer lose income (as many had previously done) from missed OT and holiday pay. It was decided that it's enough to give up personal time, working at home without compensation, without having to miss out on extra pay while working on joint Company-Association projects, and/or being the Steward on Duty in addition to flying the line. The stipend system shows appreciation and helps volunteers break even. The FLOPS could learn from 1108 how to treat workers right.

As an observation: B19 has refused to establish his credibility (current employer, position, etc) and has no credentials to talk about frac Union operations, mind-set, and relationship with management. He rudely shoves his alleged, unrelated, past experience in another industry into discussions of current 1108/NJASAP events. In sharp comparison, Union volunteers share reliable information and make observations grounded in reality--not FUD. It is painfully obvious (especially to those vindictively fired) that the FLOPS are acting out of selfishness--not the overworked/underpaid pilots.

PRO-MANAGEMENT POSTS SHOULD BE BOOTED OFF THIS THREAD. SHEERINGA GANG SUPPORTERS ARE AN INSULT TO THE BESIEGED FLIGHTOPS PILOTS AND THEIR LONG-SUFFERING FAMILIES.

Blah blah blah.

You bailed out of AA when the union didn't give you what you wanted. Eagle wasn't good enough, even though the union negotiated it for you. You didn't like the union then, but you support it now.

If your husband did what he was hired to do, fly airplanes instead of work for the union, he wouldn't need a stipend now would he? Nope, working for the union allows him to stay at home more. I can see why you would support the union.

I wonder what Uncle Warren's opinion is of pilots that were hired to fly when they spend more time on the ground doing union work instead of flying?

I'm certain that his opinion is probably closer to the the fact that pilots are hired to fly airplanes, as professional managers are hired to manage.

I can see you meeting him and spewing your line above to him. Once he picked himself off the ground laughing, he would tell you to get a life.

FlightOps pilots are beseiged because they chose a union. I feel bad for the 33% that didn't vote for the union. The other 64% should have been more careful for what they asked for.

 

[netjetwife]

This message is hidden because B19 Flyer is on your ignore list.

Unfortunately, as long as the Options pilots are at the bargaining table sitting across from Fud and Harassment, Union supporters will be verbally stalked here and readers will have to slog thru the FUD unless they use the ignore function selectively. I regret the inconvenience but these are critical times for fractional pilots and their families so I'll continue to participate in conversations regarding current frac events that affect my family and friends in the industry. I have no problem answering questions about my family's involvement (lost income, sacrificed family time) in the Union, but I'm sure the Options pilots would rather discuss the situation at FltOps. Hang in there, guys! When you get a contract the fudspinners will leave to harass the next group with enough guts to make a stand.

FUD IS USED TO DIVERT ATTENTION FROM THE FACT THAT THE SHEERINGA GANG IS EXPLOITING PILOTS AND RUINING FLIGHTOPS

MANAGEMENT'S RACE TO THE BOTTOM IS DRAGGING DOWN PILOTS AND THEIR FAMILIES. KUDOS TO THOSE WHO STAND UP AGAINST IT.

 

[RNObased]

Blah blah blah.

FlightOps pilots are beseiged because they chose a union. I feel bad for the 33% that didn't vote for the union. The other 64% should have been more careful for what they asked for.

Speaking of blah, blah, blah, you are the king of it.

Blame the union or high oil prices, all you want for the mess that Options has itself in, the fact is that mangement dropped the ball. Do you see the other fractionals firing pilots out of senority because of some silly matrix for pilot productivity, that your settlar mangement developed??? NO.

Where are you going to go to B19 when the place folds in around you??? And don't give me any of your 2012 plan rah, rah, crap, because no one believes you will be around then.

 

[netjetwife]

Nice to see you posting, RNO... You nailed it! BTW, Fudspinner reminds me of the Wizard of Oz yelling behind the curtain, "Pay no attention to those FLOPS firing pilots!"....

We're buying a new family vehicle--thanks to a fair contract we can afford one. Do any of you guys own a Buick Enclave or a GMC Acadia? I've already starting negotiating with dealers. Imagine that! Daring to ask for a better deal... Almost as "greedy" as Options pilots expecting to be paid as professionals. Don't drool all over my post Word-twister. I'm being sarcastic.

 

[AeroBoy]

B19,

Perhaps you should disclose to FlightInfo members that you were on the advisory board of a major fractional provider. I already know which one -- care to share with the rest of the group?

 

[fischman]

Nice to see you posting, RNO... You nailed it! BTW, Fudspinner reminds me of the Wizard of Oz yelling behind the curtain, "Pay no attention to those FLOPS firing pilots!"....

We're buying a new family vehicle--thanks to a fair contract we can afford one. Do any of you guys own a Buick Enclave or a GMC Acadia? I've already starting negotiating with dealers. Imagine that! Daring to ask for a better deal... Almost as "greedy" as Options pilots expecting to be paid as professionals. Don't drool all over my post Word-twister. I'm being sarcastic.

I feel sorry for the dealer.

Not a better family vehicle out there than a Honda Odyssey. We spent way too much money on ours, but thanks to the contract and NJA's record prfits, I can afford it.

 

[fischman]

B19,

Remember what American's management did right after they got concessions from the pilots a couple of years ago? They gave each other a bonus.

 

[dime line]

B19 Is a SCAB

 

[netjetwife]

I feel sorry for the dealer. Hey, I'm polite...but well informed. I did have a dealer grumble about educated buyers... Oh well. If it didn't sell even with a Memorial Day "special deal" the price is still too high. Just like...when things at FltOps kept going south it meant that the FLOPS were doing something wrong. Those who speak up aren't at fault for pointing out the facts...

Not a better family vehicle out there than a Honda Odyssey. Thanks for the tip; I'll check it out. We spent way too much money on ours, but thanks to the contract and NJA's record prfits, I can afford it.

One of the most rewarding things about volunteering in the Union is knowing that you are helping to make a difference in the lives of the pilots and their families. I love hearing testimonials from the NJ pilots and look forward to the same from the Options group.

On the drive to the airport my husband gave me my assignment to line up a good deal. He's always left negotiations to me because I'm better at it. Do you guys think I should wear my boots when I make the rounds... Actually, I've done a lot of it in emails and on the phone so far to the frustration of the dealers-- who I informed must compete for my business.

In all seriousness, whether it's buying a big ticket item or getting a fair contract, no one else will have your best interests at heart. You have to speak up ...or you lose out. It's that simple.
Best wishes,
NJW

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

Oh, I get it. I’ve personally worked with pilot unions that make NJ look like a bunch of pansies. " Really? Oh do tell... prove it.Just like a two year old child, if the union gets what they want they will work with the company and play nice-nice. Yeah, I've seen the point where unions do as you describe. And months later I was laid off directly as a result of the exact same union when they didn't get what they wanted in negotiations. I highly doubt it.

If you’ve read my posts, and understand anything that I’ve stated, my biggest disgust for unions is that when things don’t go the way the union wants them to where it all falls apart. The more I've listened to you you start to sound more like my three year old set in her ways... my way or no way

Unions do not work well under pressure. That’s when they fail the most. When a company is critical on finances, the union is the last, not the first, to step up to the plate and offer concessions. Not this time, Bunky... time to realize this. I have been at the other end of the spectrum, so I know what it is. New times, new corporate strategy... Why is this so hard to comprehend?

I’ve seen critical safety programs watered down because unions don’t want to expose their membership to possible problems. Horse********************... pure horse********************, and now you are really stretching to find things That’s why we’ll never see cameras in the cockpit even though it is a critical item for safety. I'm sorry, but I dont buy that, CVR's and cockpit recorders arent enough? I mean for gods sake, there is absolutley no justification to add cameras.

When the union doesn’t get what they want in negotiations, they stomp their little feet like a child and threaten strike, etc. Same old same old..which part didn't you understand?? The old way is not the way, the ancient truth not literal today....

No, I get it. The question is, do you get it? I've had it for a long time, merde for brains, you have to take your blinders off and stop haitin'.

While I’m at it, did you get paid to volunteer?
That , sir, Is none of your business. However, If I were not compensated, I promise you I would do it gratis regardless because I AM VOLUNTEERING. Some people always have to have their hand out, and seems to me you may be one of them... sounds old school union-like type behavior.. doesnt it??

If you didn’t and NJW’s husband does, that proves my point that NJW has a personal agenda, that her husband is paid by the union for his "volunteerism" (I call it working for the union instead of NJ) thus she has a personal, financial interest in the success of the union. That’s the only reason she is a staunch supporter.
And this point gets you where?? Its not revelant. Why wouldnt she be a supporter? It feeds and clothes her family and keeps them secure, I wish MY wife would take such a proactive approach to our future stability. And last but not least, if he gets paid and you didn’t…. You’re a sucker…

Full stop right there, B19....Dont call me a sucker ever again... you do not know me well enough to ever insinuate calling me a sucker.. all you ended up doing was pissing me off more. And isnt that counter-productive for you, one less "sucker" to hear your brayings like a cornered mule?
This was a very concious decision both my self and my wife thought through, the timing is right for me to put my time and effort in to help my extended NJ family out there. I'll go to bed feeling good because I may make a difference in the long run.

 

[dash_trash]

...The union and management should be about to work together and make those concessions unilaterally, but it never happens that way...

True words never spoken.

At $hitfingers last gig, he got a "performance" bonus from the bankruptcy judge while pilots were being furloughed and those that remained were taking pay cuts in excess of 30% ... not to mention the loss of the pilots retirement, medical bennies, and work rules. There was no working together ... $hitfinger imposed retro-active concessions ... under the threat of liquidation. Nice "Team Work" with his "Team Members."

Your right, it never happens that way ... Management takes the Golden Parachute and leaves the rest to deal with the mess THEY created.

 

[Fozzy]

B19,

Perhaps you should disclose to FlightInfo members that you were on the advisory board of a major fractional provider. I already know which one -- care to share with the rest of the group?

"Answer the question"

 

[gunfyter]

You don't mean Darnell Martens of the Clinton Administration's TRAVELGATE scandal?

TravelGate TravelAir? Hmmmm

 

[FredGarvin]

Not a better family vehicle out there than a Honda Odyssey. We spent way too much money on ours, but thanks to the contract and NJA's record prfits, I can afford it.

Way to support stuggling union workers (and their families) by buying a non-union built car from a foreign owned company.

 

[netjetwife]

Options pilots have posted at length--every word informative and relevant--on a current subject that affects them and their families directly. Those of us who support them can post knowledgeably about the topic that indirectly affects us. B19 hijacks the thread, insulting pilots left and right and constantly trying to divert attention away from the despicable actions of the Sheeringa Gang.

Here's a test to see if B19 takes his answers (as off-topic as the questions are) and goes away. Here we go--loud and clear.

NJ PILOTS WHO SERVE THE UNION DON'T MAKE EXTRA MONEY. THE UNION GIVES THEM A STIPEND SO THAT THEY CAN BREAK EVEN. BEFORE THAT THOSE PILOTS WERE LOSING MONEY WHILE VOLUNTEERING AND BURN-OUT WAS A CONCERN.

NJASAP DIRECTORS DON'T GET THE STIPEND FROM 1108....DUH...I STOPPED COUNTING MY FAMILY'S FINANCIAL LOSS WHEN IT HIT 5K

PERSONAL TIME THAT VOLUNTEERS DONATE TO THE UNION IS NOT REIMBURSED--ONLY THE FLYING INCOME THEY MISS WHILE WORKING ON UNION AND/OR JOINT PROJECTS IN CMH. NJA VALUES INPUT FROM THE PILOTS AND HAS A FAIR SYSTEM WITH THE UNION TO COVER THE PILOTS WHO SERVE ON COMMITTEES AND ALSO FLY THE LINE

FUD-FLINGERS ARE AN INSULT TO PILOTS WHO FIGHT FOR THEIR CAREER, THEIR FAMILY, AND THEIR PEERS IN THE INDUSTRY. THOSE WHO WISH TO SHOW SUPPORT TO THE OPTIONS PILOTS CAN GIVE B19 THE BOOT AND HELP CLEAR HIS FUD OFF THIS THREAD.