My hero....JC Lawson... Profile in CVG Enquirer...bring some Kleenex

[John Pennekamp]

The only thing they got was a guarantee that they would be notified of the mainline carrier's scope proposals. They don't get to sit at the table or actively participate. If you think the mainline MECs are going to do anything more than just email a copy of the scope section to the regional MEC, then you're kidding yourself.

PCL, sometimes you just don't make sense.

Let's go back in time and pretend you're still a PCL MEC member. NWA is trying to screw you by negotiating pay concessions to take all of your -900s and -700s. The -200s are on their way to retirement. There is no provision that NWA must take PCL pilots. But of course, this never happened. It would have given Dan Ford all of the ammo he needed.

Now, tell me again with that haughty tone how the RJDC's actions were useless. As a former ASA MEC member, I ASSURE YOU that the MEC acknowledged MANY times behind closed doors that the RJDC lawsuit threat was the ONLY thing that kept DALPA from instituting a "jets 4 jobs" scheme for DCI.

They may only have to notify us it's coming this time, but at least we can prepare. And a future lawsuit is not out of the question.

 

[PCL_128]

Let's go back in time and pretend you're still a PCL MEC member. NWA is trying to screw you by negotiating pay concessions to take all of your -900s and -700s. The -200s are on their way to retirement. There is no provision that NWA must take PCL pilots.

Remember John, we have a different mindset about these things. I wouldn't feel I was being "screwed" by the NWA pilots if they took back their flying. Getting as much flying on the mainline list as possible is the goal. The regionals should serve a small niche and should basically serve as a stepping stone to the mainline carriers for most pilots. Expanded -700 and -900 flying at the regionals is abhorrent.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Remember John, we have a different mindset about these things. I wouldn't feel I was being "screwed" by the NWA pilots if they took back their flying. Getting as much flying on the mainline list as possible is the goal. The regionals should serve a small niche and should basically serve as a stepping stone to the mainline carriers for most pilots. Expanded -700 and -900 flying at the regionals is abhorrent.

And how did that work for you? You don't work for mainline.

And what about those of us who have no desire to "move on"? I can make a good career and make good enough money doing this. Not everyone dreams of Big Shiny Jets. Why should we all be handicapped because a bunch of starry eyed kids dream of flying the big metal? It's because of this attitude that we're treated like the farm leagues, and its not fair.

This is the very crux of the lawsuit. Guys like me who don't want to fall on our swords so that "more maninle jobs are created"!

 

[PCL_128]

And how did that work for you? You don't work for mainline.

I don't work for NWA mainline (never wanted to), but I did find work at a mainline carrier. But what would have happened if the NPA years ago had allowed outsourcing of 90-seat airplanes? That's only 27 seats less than what I'm flying now. I'd wager that the job I have now wouldn't have been available, because it would have been outsourced to you or some other regional carrier at much lower payrates. Because of the NPA keeping that flying on the list, I now have a job at a carrier with a good retirement plan and decent pay. All mainline carriers should aim to keep as much flying on their own lists as possible, and that benefits the regional pilots by providing opportunities for advancement.

And what about those of us who have no desire to "move on"? I can make a good career and make good enough money doing this.

That's fine, but if you want to stay at the regionals then you should accept that you'll always be flying smaller aircraft that the mainline pilots allow to be outsourced. Expecting mainline pilots to allow their flying to be outsourced to you is ridiculous.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I don't work for NWA mainline (never wanted to), but I did find work at a mainline carrier. But what would have happened if the NPA years ago had allowed outsourcing of 90-seat airplanes? That's only 27 seats less than what I'm flying now. I'd wager that the job I have now wouldn't have been available, because it would have been outsourced to you or some other regional carrier at much lower payrates. Because of the NPA keeping that flying on the list, I now have a job at a carrier with a good retirement plan and decent pay. All mainline carriers should aim to keep as much flying on their own lists as possible, and that benefits the regional pilots by providing opportunities for advancement.

You hit the nail on the head. NWA (and many other "mainline" carriers) CHOSE to outsource that flying. That decision is in the past, and can't be simply taken back with the stroke of a pen. Good for you that Airtran "mainline" (lol) didn't outsource. Seems SOMEBODY learned from the mistakes of the past.

That's fine, but if you want to stay at the regionals then you should accept that you'll always be flying emaller aircraft that the mainline pilots allow to be outsourced. Expecting mainline pilots to allow their flying to be outsourced to you is ridiculous.

I have accepted that. You don't get it. My request is leave me and my job alone, and stop trying to reneg on a decision you ("mainline") made 10+ years ago. I don't "expect" more outsourcing, I do expect them to stop attempting to steal my job back.

You are parroting anti RJDC propaganda now.

 

[PCL_128]

I have accepted that. You don't get it. My request is leave me and my job alone, and stop trying to reneg on a decision you ("mainline") made 10+ years ago. I don't "expect" more outsourcing, I do expect them to stop attempting to steal my job back.


You are parroting anti RJDC propaganda now.

Actually, I agree with you on that. Mainline carriers shouldn't be trying to take scope back, unless the take the regional pilots with it. But you referenced NWA and my time on the MEC at PCL, and we didn't have any of that larger flying already. It was just a possibility at the time. Those planes didn't arrive at XJ and Comp-ass until I was gone. So, if the mainline pilots had taken crappy payrates to fly the -700s and -900s, no regional pilot would have lost his job, but the mainline guys would have retained the scope. That's why I said "expanded" flying in my post. We didn't already have it, so it wasn't ours to lose.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Actually, I agree with you on that. Mainline carriers shouldn't be trying to take scope back, unless the take the regional pilots with it. But you referenced NWA and my time on the MEC at PCL, and we didn't have any of that larger flying already. It was just a possibility at the time. Those planes didn't arrive at XJ and Comp-ass until I was gone. So, if the mainline pilots had taken crappy payrates to fly the -700s and -900s, no regional pilot would have lost his job, but the mainline guys would have retained the scope. That's why I said "expanded" flying in my post. We didn't already have it, so it wasn't ours to lose.

So it seems like we agree, even though that's not what you said the first time.

 

[N2264J]

Re: My hero....JC Lawson... Profile in CVG Enquirere...bring some Klennex

Especially the one outside of bk, the "pay freeze" for the 170s you never got.

We took the pay freeze for the fleet guarantee. To characterize it as anything else is inaccurate.

ALPA would not let us negotiate our own scope, [to ALPA, that's mainline's perview after all] so we jumped at the chance to have a fleet guarantee - in other words, a backdoor scope policy that would have stopped the bleeding at Comair had it not been overcome in bankruptcy.

Personally, I thought that was worth paying for.

Remember, there was a time before bankruptcy when we thought we might be able to avoid it. The Comair pilots did their part despite the evidence that Comair
was a viable concern on its own, operating in the black.

And that is something you won't hear from Generally.

 

[N2264J]

The lawsuit is over. It failed.

Actually, the lawsuit will live on forever in ALPA policy.

 

[FDJ2]

Actually, the lawsuit will live on forever in ALPA policy.

Over seven years of of litigation and all you got was the right to receive a memo from the mainline. :laugh:

It was funny reading all the RJDC bluster about how solid their case was, just to see them throw in the towel when it came time to put up or shut up.

How pathetic. The least Dan Ford could have done after taking all that money from his supporters and dropping all those trips was to see it through. Instead he just caved.:laugh:

 

[PCL_128]

Actually, the lawsuit will live on forever in ALPA policy.

Actually, that's a pleasant thought! The tiny addition to the Admin Manual will always be a memorial to the utter failure of that loser Dan Ford. His cowardice and failure will live on forever!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Actually, that's a pleasant thought! The tiny addition to the Admin Manual will always be a memorial to the utter failure of that loser Dan Ford. His cowardice and failure will live on forever!

Please. Stop with the BS rhetoric.

 

[PCL_128]

Please. Stop with the BS rhetoric.

I'll stop with the "BS rhetoric" as soon as the RJDC supporters admit that their settlement was a joke. Trying to spin this as some sort of victory is absurd, and you know that.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I'll stop with the "BS rhetoric" as soon as the RJDC supporters admit that their settlement was a joke. Trying to spin this as some sort of victory is absurd, and you know that.

1. That's never going to happen.

2. Why do you care what they think? What concern is it of yours that they "admit" defeat?

 

[PCL_128]

1. That's never going to happen.

Yeah, I'm well aware.

2. Why do you care what they think? What concern is it of yours that they "admit" defeat?

I certainly don't care what they think, but if they're going to continue to spew rhetoric, then I'll return the favor. Their claims of some great victory will not go unchallenged.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Yeah, I'm well aware.I certainly don't care what they think, but if they're going to continue to spew rhetoric, then I'll return the favor. Their claims of some great victory will not go unchallenged.

The Chinese definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result every time.

But by all means, keep beating your head on that wall. Eventually it won't hurt anymore...

 

[PCL_128]

The Chinese definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result every time.


But by all means, keep beating your head on that wall. Eventually it won't hurt anymore...

Actually, I just find it entertaining.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Actually, I just find it entertaining.

Yet another sign of insanity...

 

[N2264J]

Their claims of some great victory will not go unchallenged.

Noone is claiming a great victory. It was a settlement.

If you think the mainline MECs are going to do anything more than just email a copy of the scope section to the regional MEC, then you're kidding yourself.

Are you implying that ALPA negotiated the settlement in bad faith? (And he says he's on ALPA's side!)

It's easy to see why you're such an effective recruiter for ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

Are you implying that ALPA negotiated the settlement in bad faith?

No, I'm implying that MECs will comply with the letter of the law. If you want true cooperation rather than just the minimum required by the settlement, then you'll have to get your regional MECs to build relationships with the mainline MECs. True cooperation doesn't happen at the point of a gun.