Multi Time in a Sim

[zoom]

This is a stupid question, I know... but I'v easked it of several I.P.s here locally and none can give me the same answer.

We have a simulator, an AST 300, i beleive. Fully certified and allowed by the FAA as a flight training device.

When one logs time in it, does that also count towardsa their overall Multi time? I doubt it myself, but wishful thinking nevertheless.

thanks!

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[low&slow]

That would most likely be the AST-300 sim, not ASE.

That time does not count towards multi time (which is considered "flight time") but counts towards "sim/ftd" and "dual" only.

 

[bobbysamd]

Sim time

Yup, it counts only as Simulator/Flight Training device. I don't believe it can count as dual received. I believe that "dual received" is aircraft instruction only. In fact, ground instructors can give training in flight training devices.

Please, please, please, keep it out of your total time column.

 

[Data]

Check out the FARs. Under 61.109 i1 you can use 2.5 towards a Private, in 61.129 i1i, you can use up to 50 hours towards your Commercial. But like the others have said, don't use it for total time.

 

[Caveman]

"Please, please, please, keep it out of your total time column."

bobbysamd,

Why not? I've always logged sim time and FTD time under the TT column and the SIM column, I just don't put it under anything else. When you add up my SE, ME and SIM columns they equal my TT. They do not equal my PIC + SIC because I don't count the sim/FTD as either of those.

The Feds allow the use of a sim or FTD, depending on the circumstances, for a multitude of ratings, certifications, and recurrent training. Why shouldn't it be under TT?

I've logged this stuff from day one and I've never had a fed or potential employer ever question it. Two 121 carriers looked at my logbook and they both offered me jobs. I really don't see any problem with it as long as I don't try to log it as actual flight time, in other words as PIC or SIC.

The one that stumps me is trying to figure out how to log dual given in a sim. I have about 400 hours dual instrument training given in an FTD. Every hour of that was loggable for the students and counted towards their instrument rating but I haven't been able to figure out a way to use it to my advantage. What's frustrating is that the students couldn't have logged it if I hadn't signed the books as dual given. What I've opted to do is just keep a separate column and not count this in any other totals, including TT.

There was a little known interpretation that said IF you met all other requirements for an ATP but did not meet the 1500 TT you could have used dual given in a sim/FTD to bring you up to the 1500TT. Notice I wrote this in the past tense. I don't know if that interpretation is still valid. That's why I originally started to keep track of this time in the first place. I didn't end up using it but I still have the time accounted for.

What do the rest of you guys do with dual given in a sim or FTD? I'd be especially interested to hear how the 121 sim instructors log that time or if they even bother.

 

[atpcliff]

Sim time in Total Time???

Hi!

I only log sim/ftd in it's column. I never thought of logging it in TT but NOT PIC/SIC/Dual Rcvd, as the Caveman did.

What do you airline pilots/interviewers think of this idea?

It would help me a lot. I would go from about 1650 TT to about 1900 TT. I have a lot of MEJet sim time.

Opinons, Please!

Thanks for the help

Cliff
GB,WI

 

[flx757]

Just my own personal opinion and the way I do it...As a 121 sim instructor/check airman, I don't log anything in my pilot logbook for the time I am running the sim....however, I do keep a separate log of the students' names and the nature of the sim session. When I receive sim training and/or checks, that time goes in the SIM/FTD column, but never in the TT. To me, it is not "flight time", and that is all that ever goes into my TT.

Again, just my $.02.

 

[Caveman]

atpcliff,

Please allow me a minor clarification. I do log SIM/FTD time as dual rec'd if the instructor signs my logbook.

 

[Caveman]

In seems as if I'm in the minority about logging sim/FTD time in the total column. Frankly, that surprises me. I just assumed everybody was logging it the same way. I'm not convinced I'm doing anything inappropriate, but there is still what I like to call 'industry standard'. If the majority of folks at the professional level don't do it this way, right or wrong, I want my logbook to be representative of what most folks are doing. It saves a lot of questions that way and it might keep my resume in the good pile.

I thought I avoided logging anything controversial. For example I know the regs say I can log actual instrument time when I'm the NFP in a 2 crew airplane but I choose not to. I know exactly how much actual instrument time I personally have flown and if push came to shove I could estimate what the other guy flew by multiplying mine by 2 and subtracting 15-20% for a fudge factor.

Some of this stuff is pure opinion, including my own. If you can clearly show exactly what's going on in your logbook and you aren't padding or trying to decieve anyone I don't think anyone will hassle you.

 

[zoom]

Sim Time

Sorry for starting this little controversy.

Here's what I have since learned. I spoke with an FAA Examiner yesterday and insofar as using sim time towards ratings, as long as the sime or FTD is approved by the FAA, he said you could log it towards your total time.

The FARs allow a maximum, of course, as in the instrument rating. For me, I'm allowed to apply no more than 100 hours towards the 1500 for the ATP.

Anyway, I hope this helps.


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[Huck]

I also have always logged sim time as TT. My reasoning is simple: that training is required for my job, for my line qualification under our Part 121 training program. It is "high gain" learning time. If I can justify logging TT in a C-150, I can certainly justify it in a level D MD-11 sim. Until the FAA clarifies TT requirements, I'll stick to my interpretation. 3 interviews and not a question about it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Total time v. Flight Time

Here's where I'm coming from. Take a look at these definitions:

Part 1 - Definitions and Abbreviations, 14 CFR 1.1:

Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing . . . (bold added)

(Yeah, a lot of Riddlers in Prescott have a ton of flight time from just being 10th in line for takeoff! )

and

14 CFR 61.1(b)(6) Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

Dual (instruction) generally means flight instruction in an aircraft.

So, in light of these definitions, I do not believe it is correct to lump in your sim or flight training device time with your total time, because it is not logged in an aircraft.

I used this web site as my FAR source: http://www2.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet

Hope that clarifies things somewhat. As always, five different people, five different interpretations.

 

[BeechScrub]

Hey Caveman...

You mentioned something earlier about logging actual instrument time when you are the non-flying pilot in a 2-pilot crew. I thought that in order to log that time, you had to be the PIC of the flight. Are you saying that an FO can log actual when he is not flying?

I totally understand your reasoning with not wanting it in your logbook, I wouldn't either. I just wanted to clarify.

BeechScrub

 

[flx757]

BeechScrub,

There is a thread which discusses this issue in detail. Look in the
FAR section under "Logging IMC time".

 

[Caveman]

Do a search. There was a thread fairly recently that will do it more justice than I could. But, the bottom line is that yes the NFP in a 2 crew airplane can log actual IFR just like they log night time. It's a condition of flight and as a required crewmember you must be there so you can log it. Like I said before, I choose not to for personal reasons.

 

[Caveman]

5 minutes earlier and I woulda had ya.......

 

[NWA-AirGuard]

I log sim time in total time because part 61.51(b)(1)(ii) says to "log total flight time or lesson time." Just because the log book says "total time" doesn't mean that part 61.51 says its for "total flight time." Also, part 61.1(b)(12) says:
Pilot time means that time in which a person-
(i) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

One aspect no one has talked about is "other time" (a term the air force uses) or when you have more pilots on board than required (i.e. long international flights). I have a lot of flights in the E-3 and the KC-135 that there were 3 or more pilots. So for part of the flight I wasn't in a pilot seat and thus logged "other time" for that part of the flight. I put the total duration of the flight in the total time column and only the time I was in one of the pilot seats (primary and secondary time) in the multi-engine column. To get my total pilot time for an airline interview I add up my SE and ME time. Kind of like I can't look at my PIC column and use all of that time for most airlines applications PIC time. Only time I "signed for the aircraft". In others words your log book isn't solely for an job interview, but also for currency and training for ratings.

 

[MartinFierro]

I am rusty on my regs in this area, but what about simulated instrument time? Can't you do 6 approaches in an FTD and count them all toward your IFR currency? I think I remember reading this. And if this is the case, wouldn't that suggest that it is loggable time as simulated instrument time?

 

[skydiverdriver]

I have an older logbook, and the total time column says total flight time. I have never logged any sim, no matter how sophisticated, as total time. All of my total time is in flight in an aircraft, which I think makes it far simpler. I think doing it another way may cause problems in the future. Good luck to all.

 

[bobbysamd]

Approaches in the sim

Sure, you can count your approaches in the sim for IFR currency. You only need three hours of instrument time in aircraft for currency if passengers are to be carried. 14 CFR 61.57(c)(2)(ii). The other three hours can be in the ground trainer.

But, it is still ground trainer time and in my .02 opinion should be kept out of your flight time column. Log it as simulator or ground trainer.