MU-2 Study

[ACT700]

HERE WE GO AGAIN!


Let the whining and biaching begin.

I'll say it again: It is no secret, the MU2's reputation. So, if you don't like it, if you are intimidated by it, or whatever the reason may be, then DON'T FLY IT.

We, who fly it, or better, I'll speak for myself: I accept the whole MU2 "thing", for lack of a better word. My family does. And if my time comes in one of them, so be it.
This is by far the most fun airplane I have flown. And yes, the most challenging.

But let's stop the bashing, until we have some effing facts.

I'm sure the Feds, being already under the gun on this one, will act-drastically. I don't have a problem with them instituting a "type-rating" or something.

Oh, and your logic for saying that these pilots managed to crash these birds without killing anyone on the ground, is, in my opinion, pure horse$hit.
I think that's the last thing that they were worried about.

And to that effect (sooner or later an MU2 will plow into a school, apartment, whatever...) is dumb reasoning. Because if you really stand behind that kind of reasoning, then you should be out there lobbying to have Teterboro closed and all Challengers grounded.

Get on with it already...

Let's everybody shut the puck up, and let the Feds do their work!

 

[Courkyle]

Type rating

With all do respect....What's a type rating going to do for you when you are in a situation you can't recover from. In my own son's case he was trained and retrained and retrained again every few months or so by Howell Enterprises....the best in the country for this airplane.....but it wasn't good enough.....Not a low-time pilot looking to gain hours...He was an experienced 737 pilot for USAirways and had the misfortune of being furloughed after 9/11 and was forced to go back to the MU-2 for livlihood. He met the misfortune that so many others before him did. If this airplane is so much under the gun by the Feds both now and in the past....including it's original certification process.....yes...I have done my homework......then why do you think that is.....There's nineteen pages of MU-2 crashes on the NTSB website....eleven in the past year or so alone....I would say that would give the FEDS something to worry about....especially given their moto safety first so to speak. Yes.... I do know the FEDs are starting to squirm on this one and maybe its about time. Good luck to all who still choose to fly it.

 

[TIGV]

In a PM to me Courkyle wished me the following glad tidings:

"You should have gotten into porn. Your character and your language are just right for the job......My son was not only a professional pilot but a professional human being respected by all.....which is more than I can say for you. Enjoy flying and I wish you the same fate as others that have gone before you......your day is coming!!!!!.Have a good day"

You sir are a class act.

I lost a friend on the MU-2 and yes it was pilot error and I, to at least some small degree, can sympathize with your loss, but the above is not acceptable in a public forum or a private message and I respectfully request a detraction of those portions of your PM that wish me personal harm, what with me being superstitious and all.

Cheers.

 

[erj-145mech]

Just because your son flew Boeings, that doesn't make him proficient in a high performance turbo prop. My brother in law is a flight deck officer for US Air, and I won't let him perform a pre-flight on my plane when I'm in it. I won't let him borrow it either. I don't expect him to allow me to preflight his aircraft either.

I can appreciate your support of your sons flying abilities. What was the date of you sons accident? Was it attributed to a failure of the aircraft or a ground facility? Can you give us a link to this so that we may form an intellegent opinion on the accident in question?

Because you show that you have no aviation experience, and you make a bold statement that this aircraft is totally unsafe before a host of professionals in this field is absurd. Why don't you come back when you can make an informed statement that isn't laced with emotions.

I also have refused to look at your private message, and if its like the other one, I will lodge a formal complaint with the moderators of the board and insist that you be banned along with the other bad apples.

 

[corpflunkie]

ERJ145 mech,

I have hesitated to post again regarding the MU2 seeing as how people didn't like what I had to say. However, I will not sit by and let ANYONE insinuate that CourKyle's son was not a proficient pilot. I had the honor/privelege of doing my IOE in the mitz with Tom, and can say without a doubt that he was one of the best damn pilots I EVER flew with. The final NTSB report left many unanswered questions about that day. Did something go wrong that the investigators missed? Quite possibly. Did Tom not do all the right things? We will never know. All we really know is that on that morning many people lost a friend. One lost a husband, two lost a son, and several, a brother. nuff said.

 

[erj-145mech]

Well, you sat by for 44 posts. I did not say that the pilot screwed up. I said that I did not have enough information to come to a reasonable conclusion.

The facts are that people screw up. Pilots screw up, mechanics screw up, ground personel screw up, controllers screw up. This is not a forgiving industry when this go awry. But the facts are that either the pilot, the airplane or the system screwed up this time. Sticking your head in the sand won't make it go away.

A close friend put a Baron in the trees 1/2 mile short at night in low IMC. Everybody around the airport said that he was the best pilot that they had flown with and that he couldn't screw up. I saw a NTSB transcript of his last flight with mode c readout, and he decended below the glideslope. Sometimes you get away with it, sometimes you don't.

I've screwed up, its just in my cases that either I caught and rectified the mistake, or the mistake was inconsiguential. Some cases they are not, and gravity is unforgiving and never sleeps.

Loosing a loved one is a tragedy, but put the blame where it belongs. I didn't know the pilot or you so I have an unbiased opinion on this. You obviously don't since you are involved.

Like I said above, this is my unbiased opinion, and until you can prove what I suspect is wrong, you will not change my opinions or suspicions. If you were not with him on this flight, you don't know what transpired. You have a biased opinion, I have an unbiased one.

 

[skyking1976]

Courkyle; Welcome to the webiste where a lot is said by people who know, or care, very little. TIGV says there was nothing found in the two previous SCRs. We both know he's wrong. But, he seems to be comfortable with a certain amount of ignorance in the matter. That's OK we know better. As a result of the SCR, he now enjoys flying a safer airplane when in icing conditions than before the SCR was conducted. He also seems to be pre-occupied with just making a living in the aircraft. He just doesn't want us to mess with that part of his life. After accruing 7000+ hours of flight time I would think that he would have found a better niche in the aviation world, but he seems stuck, and happy with the MU2. Wish him luck. I do.

 

[GravityHater]

I am mystified why anyone who wants such a change would come to a board such as this and start aggravating the very pilots who love and fly these machines. Maybe if the attitude was different, such as "hey I think there is a concern", or "do you guys have any info to support my theory?"

Instead we are seeing personal attacks when someone disagrees with you??

Go rattle someone else's cage with your crusade; I can't see you either adding anything useful to this forum ....or even being welcome here, sorry.
You have way too much emotional involvement in this topic to have the slightest chance of an unbiased view. I now appreciate the difficulty with which an accident investigator has to do his job.

 

[crosscut]

ERJ145 mech,

I have hesitated to post again regarding the MU2 seeing as how people didn't like what I had to say. However, I will not sit by and let ANYONE insinuate that CourKyle's son was not a proficient pilot. I had the honor/privelege of doing my IOE in the mitz with Tom, and can say without a doubt that he was one of the best dang pilots I EVER flew with. The final NTSB report left many unanswered questions about that day. Did something go wrong that the investigators missed? Quite possibly. Did Tom not do all the right things? We will never know. All we really know is that on that morning many people lost a friend. One lost a husband, two lost a son, and several, a brother. nuff said.

Up until I read Kyle’s PM, I, too, gave his son the benefit of the doubt. “However, now I will not sit by and let ANYONE insinuate that both of them shouldn’t have just gotten into porn.” Now I’m curious what that class-act privately directed at the ERJ mech.



BTW, I didn’t see the mech insinuating that Tom wasn’t a proficient pilot. He said the mere exposure to Boeings doesn’t make someone proficient with high performance t-props: completely different handling characteristics & different operating environments. What’s to disagree? Perhaps, you should direct your lack-of-hesitation posts at Tom’s dad for wishing ill will and death upon a fellow professional. I’m sorry for his son’s & his son’s family’s plight & misfortune but a mere disagreement should not warrant going around hating people who had better luck w/the airplane, which he considers evil.

 

[Vector4fun]

There's nineteen pages of MU-2 crashes on the NTSB website....eleven in the past year or so alone....I would say that would give the FEDS something to worry about....especially given their moto safety first so to speak.

Ummm,

I just did a search of the NTSB site, asked for all reports involving Mitsubishi aircraft since Jan 1, 2004.

There's only three listings for 2005, in one, the guy forgot to put the gear down....

There's 7 listings for 2004, of those 7, one hit a tug on a runway, and two suffered hard landings. (easy to do in the MU-2.)

Yes, there's several un-explained too.


Now, go back to the NTSB site, and do a search for accidents involving Cessna aircraft, just from Jan 1, 2005. Not even 9 full months' worth of data. I got 394 HITS, and I own what is statisticaly the safest GA aircraft ever built; a Cessna 172.

Do the same search for Piper Aircraft. 212 HITS


Let's review:

394 Cessna accidents since 1/1/2005,
212 Piper accidents.
Three MU-2 accidents listed. In one of those, the pilot forgot to put down the landing gear...

Those folks who died in Cessnas and Pipers had friends and relatives too.

 

[crosscut]

Vector, I don't think the statistics are proportional. On a percentage basis, there is only 700 or 800 (is that right?) MU-2s ever built & 200 of them (for one reason or another) have been totaled (don't quote me on the #s but it sounds right). So, that’s… what … 25% of them? Compare the accident rate of Cessna’s & Piper’s to those ever built & you’ll, probably, have a much smaller percentage number. Just some thoughts here.. Not defending anybody, just trying to be objective.

 

[Vector4fun]

I'm sure you're probably close. On the other hand, the typical MU-2 fliys a lot more miles/hours in a lot worse weather than your typical Cessna or Piper Single or piston twin. So it's difficult to make accurate comparisons. A very large number of Cessnas and Pipers are still on the registry, but haven't been flown or airworthy for years. The little airport I'm based at has maybe 20 airworthy aircraft, plus at least 7 Cessnas and two Pipers that I know of that haven't flown in more than a decade.

 

[GravityHater]

you’ll, probably, have a much smaller percentage number. Just some thoughts here.. Not defending anybody, just trying to be objective.

I agree. And to add further to any available objectivity though, most of those cessnas are low wing-loading, simple aircraft.

So I think we should expect many more accidents in a high-wing loaded complex twin.

I posted similar ntsb search-facts in another thread in which 11 mu accidents were reported and was ignored.

 

[Snakum]

Talk about coincidences ... I just spoke with a friend and mentor who got a sick engine on climbout in a corporate MU2, and who had to bring it back around for an ILS to minimums. As I understand it, it was a bit of a butt-puckering experience, as it would be in any airplane. However, he did what he is paid to do and put it back on the ground without a scratch.

I dunno what this means in the larger debate of 'MU2 as Automatic Deathtrap', and I know my friend Paul (also a mentor and friend) had troubles that were evidently worse. But I wanted to mention it because it was such a coinkydink.

Good job bro!

Minhommad

 

[Snakum]

the typical MU-2 fliys a lot more miles/hours in a lot worse weather than your typical Cessna or Piper Single or piston twin

And the MU2 is evidently flown by way too many cheap-ass freight outfits who'll pinch a penny till it sqeaks.

And that's what burns my ass more than anything else about losing Paul. His employer already had a bit of a rep when it came to spending the $$$ for proper maintenance, I am told.

Minh

 

[GravityHater]

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2005/050915mu2.html


Sept 15, 2005

The MU-2B turboprop does not need yet another certification review. edit - boldface mine. (GH)
The FAA, reacting to congressional pressure, is "rushing to fix a problem that has not even been quantified," according to AOPA.

"This issue has implications for other aircraft as well, because we've encountered other cases where the FAA has tried to address training or operations problems through airworthiness directives," said Luis Gutierrez, AOPA director of regulatory and certification policy. "It's somewhat like using a hammer to turn a screw."

The issue stems from two recent accidents involving MU-2Bs at Colorado's Centennial Airport. That led to a demand from the Colorado delegation that the FAA investigate the safety of the aircraft.

The FAA plans to have its Small Airplane Directorate, which is responsible for aircraft certification, lead a "Safety Evaluation Investigation."

But in AOPA's opinion, that's not the appropriate FAA office to review the possible causes of accidents that might be attributed to pilot error or other causes. The association believes that the Office of Accident Investigation or Flight Standards Service should take the lead. "Operational safety and training initiatives should be conducted by the FAA offices responsible for those matters," said AOPA.

"In addition to the original, extensive certification process for the MU-2B, the FAA thoroughly reevaluated the aircraft in at least two separate reviews," AOPA said. "In all of these examinations the airplane was determined to be safe and airworthy." edit - boldface mine. (GH)

AOPA distributed an Airworthiness Concern Sheet to appropriate MU-2 operators, and the response strongly suggested that MU-2B accidents are largely caused by pilot error, not aircraft deficiencies.
edit - boldface &underline mine. (GH)

The association also volunteered to host a forum for FAA officials, the MU2 Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, and others knowledgeable on MU-2B operations and training to "properly identify the true causal factors associated with the recent accidents and to explore possible solutions."

 

[ACT700]

Here's some food for thought:


Could it be in any way possible, that the best pilot in the world could crash because he/she, say for example, fell asleep at an inopportune time, ran out of gas, was hot-dogging, or maybe, just maybe, wasn't as good/profficient as he/she (and maybe his friends, family, etc...) thought he/she was?

I mean, let's be honest, a lot of accidents that fall into the "unsolved" category, could one of the above not be a valid reason?

And if you're going to comment on my statement, please keep it OBJECTIVE!
Just like your feelings toward me, I, too, could care less about your emotion(s)--for this discussion's sake at least.

 

[WNRHD17]

I posted similar ntsb search-facts in another thread in which 11 mu accidents were reported and was ignored.

That would be 11 deaths.....you don't have read too much between the lines on the NTSB search page to figure that out, pretty much black and white. Your search-facts were seeking out the wrong facts!

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Here's some food for thought:


Could it be in any way possible, that the best pilot in the world could crash because he/she, say for example, fell asleep at an inopportune time, ran out of gas, was hot-dogging, or maybe, just maybe, wasn't as good/profficient as he/she (and maybe his friends, family, etc...) thought he/she was?

I mean, let's be honest, a lot of accidents that fall into the "unsolved" category, could one of the above not be a valid reason?

And if you're going to comment on my statement, please keep it OBJECTIVE!
Just like your feelings toward me, I, too, could care less about your emotion(s)--for this discussion's sake at least.

I think you, oh how do you say, hit the nail sqaurely on the head. I know my wife thinks I am the worlds best pilot and never make mistakes and I have to always correct her and tell her about the time I almost dragged both engines on one side, when I landed on a closed, snow covered runway, etc etc.

The point is simple, none of us are as good as we think, or would like to be, BUT most of us try to do better every day and be just that much more proficient the next day. He!! my hands still get a little sweaty when I come in for a landing or an approach that is little tight or is down to low vis.

Pilots are human, we are going to make mistakes all the training, all the knowledge and even all the skill in the world won't save your 55% polyester wearing butt, if you get into an airplane, any airplane, and think you have this thing mastered and it has no surprises for you.

I have never flown a Mits, would love to, and I won't comment on these past few crashes. But lets not all kid ourselves and think that just because these guys/gals were/are excellent professionals and skilled pilots that this airplane was simply too much to handle when things went south. Does that mean you ground the whole fleet, maybe, 737s were grounded after two or three rudder problems, the Concorde was grounded after one crash, etc. On the same coin though, airplanes fall out of the sky almost everyday and there is no mad rush to ground them. Level heads prevail, work together people and found out what is really the problem.

 

[GravityHater]

That would be 11 deaths.....you don't have read too much between the lines on the NTSB search page to figure that out, pretty much black and white. Your search-facts were seeking out the wrong facts!

And it looks to me like someone is trying to bolster their position on the topic by presenting misleading and perhaps false information.

Your honor, I offer into evidence:

Post #36 said:
"....yet another one went down on Thursday evening in Arkansas......that makes Eleven I believe in a little over a year....."

Post #42 said
"There's nineteen pages of MU-2 crashes on the NTSB website....eleven in the past year or so alone...."