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Most expensive fractional?

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JonJuan -- first -- thanks for not taking the "bait" an dgiving me a lecture on depreciation. I am quite familiar with many very intricate facets of depreciation.

As a fractional owner, I believe the analysis is a combination of depreciation and new share acquisition costs - that is the total cost to be in, or stay in the program. As far as NJA goes, as long as they are running your fleet you never have to sell your share to stay in the program. And because it is a fractional program and I do not always fly "my plane" at 7 years, for example, I am flying the same planes but do not need to pony up any more $$ to do so. Flex (Bombardier) is in the business of selling planes. For many years, the program was you had to sell back your old share and buy a new one in 5 years. They have gotten more liberal -- for a medium sized cash payment, at the 5 year mark you may extend for an additional 2 years. At that point you must buy a new share.

This also impacts "cash flow". Cash flow is as impoortant to a large business or wealthy indiividual as it as some one without much $$. Would you rather get paid $52k/year in 52 weekly installments or get paid $54k in one lump sum at the end of 52 weeks. It is the same way with Flex (I am not conceding the depreciaton point, but assuming the depreciation is less), you need to come out of pocket major $$ to stay in the program at the end of 7 years.

In my opinion Flex's program is like this -- I buy a 2005 car and for 3 years drive a 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 car. In 2008, I need to sell my depreciated 2005, pay the new list price for a 2008, but still get to mainly fly the 2004s-2007s. I know from other fractional owners, this is a major, major negative in the Flex program. It is only lately they have added the additional 2 year extension.

Also, as another point, Flex does not guarantee more than a handful (read less than 5) of downgrades per year. For me, that is a huge cost. I "extend" my hours by downgrading often when feasible. 3 or 4 of us going to Florida do not need the G200 so we fly an Excel (and end up getting 33% more hours). When it is just one of us we use an Ultra/400XP (and end up getting 50%) more hours. At the end of the year, I usually end up getting 25-30% extra hours on the year. Not everyone uses downgrades. This has been a tremendous cost savings for me.

Just my 2 cents. But as youmay see from reading my prior posts, no one program is "best" - it is a matter of what best suits your needs.

Fly safe.
 
Question for NJA owner

Sir if I may pose a question. Did you ever even consider flight Options?
thanks

N
 
Why would you pretend to not know what depreciation is? Why would you intentionally misspell it? What are you talking about when you say, "thanks for not taking the bait..."?

From your previous posts I assumed you are infact a NetJet owner...but I now don't understand the point of "kidding" on your last post.
 
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GlassPilot -- not to be mean, but it was late and was looking to see where it could go. Many times on this board pilots go off for pages purporting to be experts on topics they barely know anything about. It sounded like that was where JonJuan's initial comment was going. Of course I firgured in depreciation of the asset. I am not that oblivious to things. I probably know as much about depreciation of assets as many of you know about flying -- depreciation is a key part of my businesses.

Nomore -- have I ever considered FlightOptions -- No. Why -- a good friend of mine has had multiple shares for 10 years and can't get rid of them fast enough. Why -- there is not enough space on this board. But many times when our families travel together NJA pays for a handler (and access to a wonderful air conditioned FBO terminal) in the Caribbean and he sits on the hot tarmac at the commercial aviation terminal. When it is a holiday time, but not a peak day, he routinely sits and waits, in the regular terminal, for his jet which has weather delays but the whole Eastern seaboard is clear and sunny. I am home about the time he gets to take off. His experience has turned into a complete disaster in the past 10 years.

To me, one of the biggest advantages of flying privately is convenience. When the operator takes that away and makes we wait hours, I can get that at Continental for a fraction of the price.

Maybe things are about to change. I hope so -- I am an investor in the HIG Capital fund which has bought FLOPS. So I have a very real economic benefit in its success.

Fly safe.
 
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Maybe things are about to change. I hope so -- I am an investor in the HIG Capital fund which has bought FLOPS. So I have a very real economic benefit in its success.

Fly safe.


From what I've been reading on these boards, you might want to start making some phone calls to the upper level management at FLOPS in order to protect your investment.

The labor strife is making them HEMORAGE money from what I've read.

Also, I am pleased that you are happy with the service you get from us at NJA. We are working hard.
 
I did not realize that Netjets now keeps aircraft for 13 years. If I remember correctly, one of the big selling features in the past was that the aircraft were all five years or less old. This kept the complaints down from people who bought a new share and then some older aircraft showed up to transport them. Originally this was also the difference in strategy with FLOPS who utilized used aircraft and hence lower intial share prices and less exposure to the vulgarities of residual value. I also thought that the money you sent Netjets monthly was for the share plus interest and that you depreciated the 1/16th, 1/4 or whatever share you had. There was then the recapture at the end.
The differences were the lower capital costs, but the Netjets fees which were higher as compared to outright ownership, higher commitment but you geting the tax benefit and a possible lower ownership cost in the end if you had the use. The big question is do 16/16ths add up to the cost of a new X aircraft or does NJA do what aircraft leasing companies do--- buy a discount but price at retail.
 
The company who gave me the best terms for the best price based on the needs of my company. If I own an international empire then I would have to go with NJ and probably swallow whatever prices they gave me. If I own a small domestic US operation then I would do my shopping. Recovery times are good, buts what even better is guaranteed recovery times. NJ historically has great recovery times, however, if the terms of my contract only guaranteed me recovery within 3 hours and someone else guaranteed me recovery within 2 hours it would be a huge bargaining point. I would also look at how well the model I was purchasing held its value. The safety factor would be a mute point because I think the fractional industry as a whole has a pretty good safety record. All the fractionals have a pretty good customer basis because we all provide a percieved value to our owners.

Your information isn't accurate. I know for a fact that NJA doesn't negotiate on price. If you buy a share of a Encore and your buddy buys a share of a Encore, the price is the same. This got FLOP's into big trouble years ago when owners were sitting around having drinks and started talking about what they paided. Next thing you know someone is pissed.

You can say I'm full of crap if you want. My info comes straight from the people who know.

Owner could probably back me up on this.

Also recovery time maybe in a contract, however if the jet I'm flying for you breaks and a XL is sitting next to me, and that XL is given the trip it is airborne as quickly as is safe to do.

Lastly never listen to JonJuan about anything. He is really quite clueless.
 
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You better believe that owners have to sell their aircraft. In fact right now, many Ultra owners, for example, are being forced out of their aircraft and the only way to stay in the program is to buy another "newer" Ultra or an Encore. NJA is now keeping aircraft in the fleet for 13 years. Problem is, there is typically very little residual value left on a 13 year old plane with 13,000+ hours.
CS keeps planes in the fleet for 9 years, Flex 7-years, and FLOPs, who knows.

Atta boy Jonjuan, don't let the facts get in the way of your ranting!!!
 

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