Mormons and Frisbee

[deez_nutz2000]

Anybody see this one?
http://southparkstudios.com/down/guide.html?id=712


ATL2CDG,

now I understand why you are such a beotch in your other posts about muslims.....

 

[Super 80]

The only 'scriptures' recognized are the OT, NT, BoM, Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrines and Covenants.

I looked up some of the tracts and books about cults in the Christian Light Book Store had today, and one thing that took my notice among many was that the BoM says that God was a man.

Now you might be able to see that the majority of Christians don't even view Mormonism as a legitimate part of the Protestant movement when its authority outrightly contradicts basic theology as laid out in the Bible.

There's other examples as well, dealing with the deity of Christ and His inception, the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins, the concept of the Trinity and the idea of working off your sin, as if Christ's saving grace were somehow not enough.

So all in all, after learning a little bit about the Mormon religion, I think even less of it. If I wasn't so cheap, I'd buy a couple of books on it so I'd be more conversant should I ever have to deal with a Mormon, because if they believe what is in the BoM, they are not inline with Christian theology.

 

[ATL2CDG]

With complete innocence and simply wanting to carry on the coversation (albeit WAY off topic from the original post):

Who sets the definition for Christian theology?

I would assume that many of the text which you read were coming from an 'anti-Mormon' viewpoint. As the trite English idiom says, 'Every story has two sides'; I wouldn't think 'anti-Mormon' literature would present a full picture of Mormon theology. As such, I would recommend that peruse some literature published by the LDS church (or one of its subsidiaries, such as Deseret) to get a more complete picture.

 

[Super 80]

I don't think reading their material is going to do any more for me after reading a side by side comparison of the Book of Mormon (quoted with chapter and verse) and the Bible. If you want to get right down to what the words say, the Book of Mormon is way off base from anything Jesus said or what the the Apostles have written in the Epistles, or what the Old Testament has to say about the nature of God.

Furthermore, I can do a detailed word study in the Hebrew and the Greek, but you can't do that for the Book of Mormon. And the only authority they took it to testified later in his own words that what was presented to him was gibberish. (Although this not what they said he said at the time.)

Now you're out of the LDS, but still defend it. If any reading this are still in the LDS, then they need to spend time researching just exactly what the BoM says versus what the Bible says (and they can use some of these tracts to see where the differences are) so they can determine if they are going to follow Jesus or Joseph Smith Jr.

 

[JustInfo]

First,

I did not say you have to believe the BofM or you are closed minded, I was merely pointing out that you can't just say it is false because they haven't ever discovered artifacts (or Horses) from the time period yet. Have they found everything the Bible talks about to have physical evidence of it?

Second,

As for Super 80, reading anti-mormon rhetoric is in no way proof that the B of M contradicts the Bible, most the anti-mormon sites are full of bogus info and mis-stated facts. If that is what .....oh nevermind, not worth the effort......


ANYWAY,

just saying when you only look at one point of view, you can hardly consider that a well rounded view. I have no problem if you have read and heard both sides of this issue and develop your own opinion, but there is no reason to go bashing a religion because of your one-sided opinions. Everyone has their beliefs and they should be respected and appreciated for the good they do. Any faith that condones bashing of others because of their beliefs has some serious issues if they think that is the Christian way of acting and treating others. I have met people from all different faiths that are doing great things, and I have tons of respect for their way of living, regardless of what religion they are affiliated with.

 

[charley varrick]

Super 80 said:
If any reading this are still in the LDS, then they need to spend time researching just exactly what the BoM says versus what the Bible says (and they can use some of these tracts to see where the differences are) so they can determine if they are going to follow Jesus or Joseph Smith Jr.

I believe that you would be the proverbial dog chasing its tail trying to convert Mormons with this tactic. Most fervent Mormons have unwaivering faith in their beliefs, and one of those beliefs is that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel. Moreover, they further believe that the Book of Mormon is in complete harmony with the Gospel of Christ as written in both the Old and New Testaments, insofar as they are translated correctly. By that last bit, they mean that it most be in concordance with what is in the Book of Mormon and what has been revealed through "Latter-Day" revelation. So, as shocking as it may seem to you, Super 80, in Mormon eyes, it is you who has gotten the Scriptures wrong. Faced with their beliefs, I don't see how you can trump them with comparative scripture studies; it simply doesn't phase them. One rubs the bleary eyes!

Although, I suppose it is marginally more entertaining than watching frisbee.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Holy chit! I had no idea this thread would get to be 4 pages..

 

[Northern Lights]

Holy chit! I had no idea this thread would get to be 4 pages..

Yeah, and your other thread is up to 9 pages! You sure know what the hot topics are

 

[JJJ]

insofar as they are translated correctly.

This sounds like contract language, ie "the companys best efforts" clauses.

Although they probably won't admit it, Mormonism is a blind faith. I have talked to a number of missionaries that were doing the walk n knock and when asked why they believe that the BoM is true, they reply that they just have faith that it is true, despit the lack of evidence of discovery and translation of the BoM.

 

[ATL2CDG]

JJJ:

The same could be said of the broader Christian faith. Faith is, in fact, the belief of things unseen. No one in this forum saw the life of Christ. No one saw his cruxifiction. No one saw his resurrection. No one witnessed the 'divine inspiration' of the various authors of the various books of the Old and New Testaments. Yet, billions of people have faith in the stories, lessons and doctrines present.

Even within the hundreds of Protestant faiths, there exist thousands of interpretations. From enfant baptism and predestination to wine or grape juice at Communion and the authority of the priesthood, Christians have come to read and understand the text of the holy scriptures differently. Yet, for some reason, Mormons have, since their organization in the 1830s, have been the focus of a higher-than-normal level of scrutiny. Those people who take the time to actually study the teachings of the COJCOLDS interestingly find that many of the 'odd' or 'non-Christian' beliefs are based in scripture.

The various denominations of the Christian faith have always bickered over 'who has it right'; in fact, that was the cause of the Protestant split from Rome. And sadly, in many cases, you can find individual churches of the same denomination condemning the teachings or actions of fellow congregations! It is unfortunate that human passions often turn to violence or ridicule when it comes to things of faith. However, until the ultimate truth is known, I fear nothing will change.

In any case, the 11th LDS Article of Faith states : We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

 

[Timebuilder]

I'm waiting for Timebuilder's opinion of the Mormons.

Are they also Christians, or are they just another group of myopic Pagans stumbling toward the darkness?

The LDS beliefs are not seen as being Biblical, since each believer has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, since no modern prophets are identified as coming before the return of Christ to claim His church, and no other scripture is given to us other than the complete scripture of the delivered Word.

Our church sends missionaries to Utah every summer.

Myopic? No.

Mislead? Absolutely, by the standard set in the Bible.

 

[ATL2CDG]

Timebuilder:

Are you of the belief that the COJCOLDS does not advocate or believe in one's personal relationship with Christ? If so, you are, in my humble opinion, quite mistaken.

 

[Timebuilder]

Timebuilder:

Are you of the belief that the COJCOLDS does not advocate or believe in one's personal relationship with Christ? If so, you are, in my humble opinion, quite mistaken.

If you have someone telling you that they have a special insight to the directives of God, you are in a cult.

 

[ATL2CDG]

Timebuilder:

You did not answer my question.

You listed three 'qualifications' for being Christian of which member of the members of the COJCOLDS does not meet. I questioned the validity of one of those points. Are you unable to address this issue?

And to respond your second post, I believe every Christian church claims to have a special insight into the will of Deity - hence the plethora of denominations.

 

[Timebuilder]

None one, not I nor anyone else, can tell you whether or not you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I DO know that He has one word, one scripture, one doctrine, and no intermediaries who decide upon undergarments.

I'm being facetious, but you get the idea.

Since the Bible is a complete scripture, and is inerrant (which aside from having no errors also implies no errors of omission, therefore there is no othe "book") and there is no command to replicate the aspostles, the temple, or the rituals of the Old Testament, then a decision to do any of these things comes from Man, and not the word of God.

It is just that simple.

 

[ATL2CDG]

Timebuilder:

Unfortunately, I am far from being a Christian biblical scholar.

As such, I would pose you a question in hopes of being educated:

How is it that Christ could define what is his one word and one scripture some 300+ years before it was written?

Despite my lack of knowledge on the subject, I am aware that dozens of additional gospels and other works were excluded during the composition of the Holy Bible during the early history of the original church. I am not aware of any scriptural references as to what denotes 'the one word' and 'the one scripture' since the 'word' (often defined as scripture) was not collected by church 'authorities' until many generations after Christ's cruxifiction.

 

[Timebuilder]

How is it that Christ could define what is his one word and one scripture some 300+ years before it was written?

Because of a simple concept that is difficult to understand. We are not designed to understand the mind of God, so we see Him through simple representations.

God exists outside of "time." All of exisitence is a moment to Him. He guided the assemblers, translators, the oral tradition speakers, the scribes, the multitude of people who did not know each other to bring together the Bible in a way that we cannot fully appreciate.

We are left with one explanation, 2 timothy 3:16-17 as the most clear declaration of this finished work. For us, we don't understand how this declaration could be valid. However, because this is a work of God, it is not only possible, but definite.

16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It's a God job. It is too big for Man, too complex to understand, and to merciful to be anyone else.

 

[ATL2CDG]

Timebuilder:

While I welcome and appreciate your efforts, that response completely fails to codify what is and what isn't the word of Deity. LDS believe that Joesph Smith was inspired by Deity when he translated the plates composing the Book of Mormon. As such, what makes the inspiration that he received any less important or valid than what any of the authors wrote?

Also, where does it state that Deity is not a linear time entity? It would amaze me that the story recounted in Genesis is so starkly structured around the basis time were Deity not bound to its constraints.

 

[Timebuilder]

Timebuilder:

While I welcome and appreciate your efforts, that response completely fails to codify what is and what isn't the word of Deity. LDS believe that Joesph Smith was inspired by Deity when he translated the plates composing the Book of Mormon. As such, what makes the inspiration that he received any less important or valid than what any of the authors wrote?

Also, where does it state that Deity is not a linear time entity? It would amaze me that the story recounted in Genesis is so starkly structured around the basis time were Deity not bound to its constraints.

Why is what Joseph Smith did less important? Because the Bible is complete, warns of other doctrines and false teachers, and gives no indication of such a person in prophetic scripture. Remember, the Bible is THE word of God. Not A word of God. The Bible is specific as to the doctrine of God, the nature and character of God, and the method we use to pray, to praise, to follow, and be saved. Plainly, other doctrines are in conflict with the teachings of Christ, who is The Word, the personality of God that speaks to and interacts with Man. No one knows The Father, except through Him. He is the personality that formed the world, gave the commandments to Moses, and made the supreme sacrifice on our part. While we do not fully understand His nature, being that one personality is all we usually have, and we are relatively powerless and weak, it is the strength of God that makes us more than we seem.

Genesis is not given as a timeline because God exists in time, it is written that way because we do.

I can find you references and explanations by very savvy Bible scholars, but frankly, right now I have too much on my plate. I already spend more time here than I should, but it is a sacrifice I make to help my friends, you and the other pilots and beginners here, and to do so on as many subjects as I can. The Bible is only one of those subjects. Perhaps Super80 has time to answer more questions.

Maybe your best bet is to find a good Bible church, and sit down and work through your questions with someone who has devoted their life to understanding the Bible. Someone who can sit across the table and talk.

If you have the interest, that's what I would recommend.

 

[ATL2CDG]

While I do sincerely welcome your invitation, Timebuilder, I have little desire to further study Christian teachings. I have, in past 24 years, had exposure to various brands of Christianity, and at this point in my life, I have no desire to emmerse myself in the patriarchal, exclusive and thought-numbing warmth that is the Christian faith.

I don't pretend to know what is and what isn't; I am an ignorant human and but a speck on greater wholeness that is existence.

I may be cold, sad, alone and rejected in my choice, however, at least I have the freedom to do so.

 

[Timebuilder]

Of course you have that right.

It comes from God.

 

[johnpeace]

An excellent book for the critic/skeptic who is looking for answers to some of the authenticity of the bible questions is 'The Case For Christ' by Lee Stroebel.

Mr. Stroebel was a Chicago Tribune legal affairs reporter and agnostic when his wife accepted Christ as Lord. He began an investigation into the Christian faith in an effort to see for himself.

He answers a lot of the questions and settling a lot of the mnisconceptions that I see members of this forum repeat over and over again (eg: "How is it that Christ could define what is his one word and one scripture some 300+ years before it was written?")

It's pretty compelling testimony from a far more tenacious critic than any of us (the guy was a lawyer!).

 

[ATL2CDG]

Of course you have that right.

It comes from God.

From Deity or from existence?

In either case, we shan't agree.

 

[Ben Dover]

Mormonism

This thread really tells much more about the participants writing than it does about the Mormon church. In fact many of the purported Mormon doctrines written of here are fiction and have no basis in Mormonism.

Here is an idea for anyone interested in really learning about the Mormon church. Why don't you call the Mormon missionaries and ask them a few questions. Or why don't you visit a Mormon church and listen to a Sacrament meeting or Sunday School. Visitors are welcome. Or visit the official web site of the Mormon church at www.lds.org

In the phone book you'll find a listing under The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which is the real name of the church, though Mormons happily go by the nickname "Mormons."

You really have nothing to lose, and only an education or insight to gain. And if it's brainwashing you're worried about, well, if you're that feeble minded then you really shouldn't be flying airplanes.

 

[SupraZachAir]

Yes, funny indeed.

I dated this gal about five years ago who I just KNEW would end up being an EX girlfriend because of her strong religous beliefs...

Hey, same story with me except mine turned out different. My g/f was becoming less happy with the whole Mormon thing. Well she finally left the church within the first year of us going out. Of course I was to blame, but her parents eventually have come to like me. This situation has led me to believe and preach to those that will listen: ex-mormon girls are the best thing for men since the pill. Mormons are great about teaching the boys to play and the girls to cook, clean, and be subserviant to the man. Well she's not totally subserviant, but the woman cleans, cooks, and frankly, the bedroom is her place for getting over a LDS childhood (if you get my drift). Ex-mormon girls are the way to go.

 

[Timebuilder]

You really have nothing to lose, and only an education or insight to gain. And if it's brainwashing you're worried about, well, if you're that feeble minded then you really shouldn't be flying airplanes.

Anything that stands between you and the word of God should be avoided like a plate of bad fish. It may be okay now, but the bad part comes later.

"Nothing to lose."

Nope.

 

[ATL2CDG]

I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

Learning is like rowing upstream: not to advance is to drop back. ~Chinese Proverb

People learn something every day, and a lot of times it's that what they learned the day before was wrong. ~Bill Vaughan

Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat. ~John Morley

You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. ~Anne Lamott

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. ~Author Unknown

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts

There is a story, which is fairly well known, about when the missionaries came to Africa. They had the Bible and we, the natives, had the land. They said "Let us pray," and we dutifully shut our eyes. When we opened them, why, they now had the land and we had the Bible. ~Desmond M. Tutu, "Religious Human Rights and the Bible"

No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means. ~George Bernard Shaw

 

[deez_nutz2000]

ATL2CDG,

You have way too much f*ckin time on your hands.....why don't you do something constructive with your time instead of preaching your bull$hit to us. This board is intended for discussion on flying, etc. not your incoherent, Webster-padded ramblings.

 

[ATL2CDG]

deez_nutz2000:

First, I don't require a dictionary to spell common big words; however, I would recommend you reference one so that you can correctly spell 'embarrassed' in my quote that you've kindly edited for your signature.

Secondly, I'm simply contributing to various discussions already on this board; I have never started a socio-poliltical thread on this forum. If you don't approve of the topics, then I would recommend you criticize the original posters.

Lastly, it took me no more than a google search and 3 or 4 minutes to post the above quotes - a considerably less amount of time than I spend on other more important things.

In any case, I thank you for your concern.

 

[Timebuilder]

I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

Learning is like rowing upstream: not to advance is to drop back. ~Chinese Proverb

People learn something every day, and a lot of times it's that what they learned the day before was wrong. ~Bill Vaughan

Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat. ~John Morley

You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. ~Anne Lamott

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. ~Author Unknown

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts

There is a story, which is fairly well known, about when the missionaries came to Africa. They had the Bible and we, the natives, had the land. They said "Let us pray," and we dutifully shut our eyes. When we opened them, why, they now had the land and we had the Bible. ~Desmond M. Tutu, "Religious Human Rights and the Bible"

No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means. ~George Bernard Shaw

I'll give you a quote from me:

Always pay less attention to what famous writers say about the Bible than what the Bible says about itself.

The difference is between the words of Man and the Word of God.

Who will you follow?